Sowell was comparing the Legacy of slavery, to post the Post slavery Liberalist movement, which saw people of color essentially held back through the fact that they were to be considered nothing BUT Black!
When Maryland was getting ready to vote on secession, Lincoln had most of the Members of the Maryland State Senate arrested, and jailed. And he also arrested the Mayor of Baltimore and the Police Chief of Baltimore. And Many prominent citizens of Maryland were also arrested. This trashing of the Constitution and jailing of Marylanders upset many Maryland Boys. One was named Booth.
The same thing happened during the Revolutionary war. On both sides. Any comment as to the whole Japanese Internment camps yet? I'll give it a read.
However the war was the only thing that offered them freedom. Because the North really didn't care about slavery and the South swore by it. The only reason the North banned slavery was because of the war. So if we didn't have the war, then they'd still be slaves. I don't particularly care for Lincoln as you stated, but you can't ignore the fact that the war brought blacks their freedom.
More importantly, politically or not, my opinion, through reading what I have of the man, not, that slavery not spread with expansionism.
Yep, along with mayors, judges, police chiefs ..... you know, just your typical rabble. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A notable arrest was of Francis Howard Key, grandson of Francis Scott Key. The grandson of Francis Scott Key, Francis Key Howard, the editor of the Baltimore Exchange, was arrested as well as others who wrote against Lincoln. While he was imprisoned at Fort McHenry, he wrote the following words. The date was September 13, 1861...... 47 years to the day! "When I looked out in the morning, I could not help being struck by an odd and not pleasant coincidence. On that day, forty-seven years before, my grandfather, Mr. F. S. Key, the prisoner on a British ship, had witnessed the bombardment of Ft. McHenry. When on the following morning the hospital fleet drew off, defeated, he wrote the song so long popular throughout the country, the Star Spangled Banner. As I stood upon the very scene of that conflict, I could not but contrast my position with his, forty-seven years before. The flag which he had then so proudly hailed, I saw waving at the same place over the victims of as vulgar and brutal a despotism as modern times have witnessed." When he was finally released on November 27, 1862 he wrote: "We came out of prison just as we had gone in, holding the same just scorn and detestation [for] the despotism under which the country was prostrate, and with a stronger resolution that ever to oppose it by every means to which, as American freemen, we had the right to resort." From......"Fourteen Months In the American Bastiles" by Francis Key Howard
The Southern secession actually brought an end to any practical thought of the expansion of slavery. At the time of Fort Sumter, the Confederacy consisted of 7 states. There is no way those 7 states could have taken on the US to expand slavery. Four additional states seceded as a direct result of Lincoln's actions at and following Fort Sumter. He, in effect, made a bad situation worse and he was warned of this in advance. The civil war, in a very real sense, was Lincoln's war.
Secession brought about the possibility of the end of expansionism for America United. Lincoln wished to preserve the Union, & through the writings & speeches I have read at least, end the expansion of slavery in America full stop. Ending the expansion of slavery Abe knew, would mean ending slavery as an institution period, for America as a whole, & would "right" that "wrong" he saw left by the Founders. EDIT: I believe Lincoln saw the War between brothers, as a way to get us back on track, to our Founder's original vision. I'm probably wrong though. Them Pesky blacks keep wanting more and such.
Secession, not being forbidden, put Lincoln on shaky ground regarding 'preserving the union'. The union was a voluntary creation of sovereign states. It's absurd to place the Creation (the union) over the Creator (the states). As Scamp posted earlier, Lincoln had much of the Maryland Senate arrested to prevent a vote on secession. He also threatened the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court with arrest when he (Justice Taney) told Lincoln he had no authority to suspend habeas corpus. What about separation of powers? What about consent of the governed? Did we vote to abolish the vision of our founders when Lincoln was elected?
Lincoln was pissed off at Maryland. The very first time Union troops showed their face in Maryland it didn't quite work out. The first contigent of Yankee troops came down from up North to help protect Washington DC . The train passed crowds up north cheering for them on the way down . Then they got to Baltimore, Maryland and had to stop and change trains because of the tracks. The good citizens of Maryland attacked the invaders. The Union soldiers got stopped and then flanked. The Union soldiers were scared to death and fired into the crowd. And then ran like little girls. They left behind 4 dead and 36 wounded soldiers and all the equipment . The Maryland citizens suffered 12 dead. It was first blood of the war. Lincoln sent an army to trash Marylanders rights after that embarrassing defeat.
Abe invaded claiming he did it to reunite states. Even a thousand dead is not worth it. But due to Abe, 630,000 killed in action. Worst of all the USA wars. People here claim they won't stand for the Bush deaths in combat in Iraq and those number but 140.
As I had stated earlier, outside of the Confederacy's stand on Slavery, I still proudly support them for their stand on State's rights. Not sure how else to answer really. Other than the fact that expansion of Slavery in the US was something Lincoln wished not to see happen, and personally, along with throngs of others, applaude him for taking a stand against. Many things contrary to what many within our populous' wants have been fought over in our time since the Civil War. Many were "Right", as almost an equal number being seen as "Wrong". The methodology of, & reasons for these battles is equally divided. The sum total however, sees America still a shining Bastion of Freedom, & Hope. Not as a Political Punchline, but as something to strive for.
To "Right" what Abe & I personally see/saw as a Moral "wrong" for this country? I'd still stand with Abe against Bush... Seeing as I have stood against our war in Iraq since day 1. Afghanistan, I could understand, Saudi Arabia being still seen as Allied with the US, & therefore untouchable? Never.
We need to knock it off as to slavery. This is the actual letter Abe sent forth and he never mentioned slaves or slavery at all. http://civilwartalk.com/threads/lincoln-call-for-troops-1861-1862.84035/
I posted Abe's letter which is not what you just said. I prefer Bush's deaths to those of Abe Lincoln.
3 Days after the attack on Ft. Sumter. And? The Union, by your link, had just been attacked, & the POTUS.. CIC Was calling up the troops to defend the Nation...?
While the starting of the war wasn't Abe's goal, or intent, (as I think I allowed) & while the dissolution of slavery wasn't his intended goal, (again, through my posts, & certainly through my link to Lincoln's own words will show) his primary goal was preservation of the union. WHICH seeing as Slavery was so hotly contested, saw Slavery, as an Institution, with free reign to grow through expansionism, had to go. Have I been misleading? If I have, I apologize.
My previous post was made to address your statement that you believed Lincoln was furthering the vision of our founders, a position I disagree with. As to this post, I'm confused as to what you're referring to about Lincoln taking a stand against slavery. Do you mean the war? If so, how so? Lincoln, in his first inaugural address, talked about preserving the union, non-interference with slavery, the perpetual union and making a more perfect union. This was all political speak. The money shot in that address is when he said why he would use force, and that was to collect revenue. There it is. No force for preserving the union, ending slavery or to form a more perfect union. Force to collect revenue. While the impact of this may have been lost in the fluff of his speech, it was clearly heard for what it was throughout the South. I suppose the above are our points of disagreement.
or whayt? Yes they did. Good point. I'm glad you brought it up. At first, New Yorkers couldn't wait to sign up and fight against the South. After a while, they realized that tens of thousands of Yankee troops where dead. For what? Then Lincoln's Government needed replacement troops for all the dead. So they announced a draft. Even working class people would be drafted. After thinking about what soldiers were fighting and dying for...The good citizens of NY went out and attacked and killed Negroes. It was the worst riot ever in US history.
Against slavery but not for slaves. Lincoln was a racist who wanted to deport the slaves. He was against the slave power structure because the plantation system marginalized white men like his father who was not a plantation owner.
Ok naw Yawls, I gots me som time a comin, 'fore I gots ta be finnin victuals.. It's be pastin dees here quotjamajiggies up agin so's ya noes ware I be startin from. http://rogerjnorton.com/Lincoln95.html [TABLE="width: 90%"] [TR="bgcolor: #FFFFFF"] [TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"] [TR] [TD]ABRAHAM LINCOLN QUOTES ABOUT SLAVERY (Including Sources) [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [/TR] [TR] [TD] [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]"A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure permanently half-slave and half-free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved - I do not expect the house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other."Lincoln's 'House-Divided' Speech in Springfield, Illinois, June 16, 1858. "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincolnedited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VIII, "Speech to One Hundred Fortieth Indiana Regiment" (March 17, 1865), p. 361. "What I do say is, that no man is good enough to govern another man, without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle - the sheet anchor of American republicanism." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Peoria, Illinois" (October 16, 1854), p. 266. "We think slavery a great moral wrong, and while we do not claim the right to touch it where it exists, we wish to treat it as a wrong in the territories, where our votes will reach it." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Speech at New Haven, Connecticut" (March 6, 1860), p. 16. "In 1841 you and I had together a tedious low-water trip, on a Steam Boat from Louisville to St. Louis. You may remember, as I well do, that from Louisville to the mouth of the Ohio there were, on board, ten or a dozen slaves, shackled together with irons. That sight was a continual torment to me; and I see something like it every time I touch the Ohio, or any other slave-border." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Letter to Joshua F. Speed" (August 24, 1855), p. 320. "I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VII, "Letter to Albert G. Hodges" (April 4, 1864), p. 281. "I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861. "In the first place, I insist that our fathers did not make this nation half slave and half free, or part slave and part free. I insist that they found the institution of slavery existing here. They did not make it so, but they left it so because they knew of no way to get rid of it at that time." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Lincoln-Douglas Debate at Quincy" (October 13, 185, p. 276. "I think slavery is wrong, morally, and politically. I desire that it should be no further spread in these United States, and I should not object if it should gradually terminate in the whole Union." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Speech at Cincinnati, Ohio" (September 17, 1859), p. 440. "In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free - honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth. Other means may succeed; this could not fail. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just - a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless." Lincoln's Second Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1862. "I do not wish to be misunderstood upon this subject of slavery in this country. I suppose it may long exist, and perhaps the best way for it to come to an end peaceably is for it to exist for a length of time. But I say that the spread and strengthening and perpetuation of it is an entirely different proposition. There we should in every way resist it as a wrong, treating it as a wrong, with the fixed idea that it must and will come to an end." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Speech at Chicago, Illinois" (March 1, 1859), p. 370. "Now, I confess myself as belonging to that class in the country who contemplate slavery as a moral, social and political evil, having due regard for its actual existence amongst us and the difficulties of getting rid of it in any satisfactory way, and to all the constitutional obligations which have been thrown about it; but, nevertheless, desire a policy that looks to the prevention of it as a wrong, and looks hopefully to the time when as a wrong it may come to an end." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Lincoln-Douglas Debate at Galesburg" (October 7, 185, p. 226. "I think that one of the causes of these repeated failures is that our best and greatest men have greatly underestimated the size of this question (slavery). They have constantly brought forward small cures for great sores---plasters too small to cover the wound. That is one reason that all settlements have proved so temporary---so evanescent." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Speech at Cincinnati, Ohio" (September 17, 1859), p. 15. "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Letter To Henry L. Pierce and Others" (April 6, 185, p. 376. "You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted. For this, neither has any just occasion to be angry with the other. " The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter to John A. Gilmer" (December 15, 1860), p. 152. "You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; while we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted. That I suppose is the rub. It certainly is the only substantial difference between us." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter to Alexander H. Stephens" (December 22, 1860), p. 160. "I did say, at Chicago, in my speech there, that I do wish to see the spread of slavery arrested and to see it placed where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in course of ultimate extinction." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Springfield, Illinois" (July 17, 185, p. 514. "Slavery is founded in the selfishness of man's nature - opposition to it, is his love of justice. These principles are an eternal antagonism; and when brought into collision so fiercely, as slavery extension brings them, shocks, and throes, and convulsions must ceaselessly follow." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Peoria, Illinois" (October 16, 1854), p. 271. "As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy. Whatever differs from this, to the extent of the difference, is no democracy." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, (August 1, 1858?), p. 532. "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388. "I have always hated slavery, I think as much as any abolitionist." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Chicago, Illinois" (July 10, 185, p. 492. "Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would, directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears."The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter to Alexander H. Stephens" (December 22, 1860), p. 160. "I believe the declara[tion] that 'all men are created equal' is the great fundamental principle upon which our free institutions rest; that negro slavery is violative of that principle; but that, by our frame of government, that principle has not been made one of legal obligation; that by our frame of government, the States which have slavery are to retain it, or surrender it at their own pleasure; and that all others---individuals, free-states and national government---are constitutionally bound to leave them alone about it. I believe our government was thus framed because of the necessity springing from the actual presence of slavery, when it was framed. That such necessity does not exist in the teritories[sic], where slavery is not present." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Letter to James N. Brown" (October 18, 185, p. 327. "I hold it to be a paramount duty of us in the free states, due to the Union of the states, and perhaps to liberty itself (paradox though it may seem) to let the slavery of the other states alone; while, on the other hand, I hold it to be equally clear, that we should never knowingly lend ourselves directly or indirectly, to prevent that slavery from dying a natural death---to find new places for it to live in, when it can no longer exist in the old."The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume I, "Letter to Williamson Durley" (October 3, 1845), p. 348. "So plain that no one, high or low, ever does mistake it, except in a plainly selfish way; for although volume upon volume is written to prove slavery a very good thing, we never hear of the man who wishes to take the good of it, by being a slave himself." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Fragment on Slavery" (April 1, 1854?), p. 222. "This is a world of compensations; and he who would be no slave, must consent to have no slave." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincolnedited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Letter To Henry L. Pierce and Others" (April 6, 1859), p. 376. "I hate it because of the monstrous injustice of slavery itself. I hate it because it deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world."The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Peoria, Illinois" (October 16, 1854), p. 255. "If we cannot give freedom to every creature, let us do nothing that will impose slavery upon any other creature." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Chicago, Illinois" (July 10, 185, p. 501. "Free labor has the inspiration of hope; pure slavery has no hope." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, "Fragment on Free Labor" (September 17, 1859?), p. 462. I repeat the declaration made a year ago, that 'while I remain in my present position I shall not attempt to retract or modify the emancipation proclamation, nor shall I return to slavery any person who is free by the terms of that proclamation, or by any of the Acts of Congress.' If the people should, by whatever mode or means, make it an Executive duty to re-enslave such persons, another, and not I, must be their instrument to perform it. Lincoln's Fourth Annual Message to Congress, December 6, 1864. "We were proclaiming ourselves political hypocrites before the world, by thus fostering Human Slavery and proclaiming ourselves, at the same time, the sole friends of Human Freedom." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume II, "Speech at Springfield, Illinois" (October 4, 1854), p. 242. "Without slavery the rebellion could never have existed; without slavery it could not continue." Lincoln's Second Annual Message to Congress, December 1, 1862. "I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume VIII, "Speech to One Hundred Fortieth Indiana Regiment" (March 17, 1865), p. 361. NOTE: All page references to The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln refer to the 1953 edition published by the Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, New Jersey. Several good single volume sources of Lincoln quotes are: (1) Recollected Words of Abraham Lincoln compiled and edited by Don E. Fehrenbacher and Virginia Fehrenbacher. (2) A Treasury of Lincoln Quotations edited by Fred Kerner. (3) Of the People, By the People, For the People and other Quotations from Abraham Lincoln edited by Gabor S. Boritt. (4) Abe Lincoln Laughing: Humorous Anecdotes from Original Sources by and about Abraham Lincoln edited by [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #996666"] [TD="colspan: 2"][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Naw, yawls be reedin thems rite gud naw y'hear? Soon Missus be thru wit me I be runnin long back naw.. - - - Updated - - - In the vast scheme of things, it don't rightly matter now, does it? God bless Liberia. BBL.
Notice the date of the letter (April 15) and when Lincoln ordered Congress to re-convene (July 4). That gave Lincoln over 80 days to have free reign to do what he wanted after engineering the Fort Sumter incident. Now, some have argued that it was a reasonable time to assemble Congress back in the day. I say hogwash. While it may have been difficult for some to make it from the West promptly, a quorum could have been assembled in less than a week. My interpretation is that Lincoln didn't want a Congress around at this time to interfere with his machinations. Keep in mind that the Senate was in session from the time Lincoln was inaugurated up to late March. It adjourned after attempts to get Lincoln to inform them on what was going on at Sumter proved futile. Lincoln would not even provide redacted information. All told, Lincoln had 4 full months with no oversight that he used to drag this nation into the bloodiest war it's ever seen.
