The White People Who Need Proof of Racism

Discussion in 'Race Relations' started by Cigar, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. Cigar

    Cigar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I will never again fall for the Show-Me-Proof-of-Racism gotcha-request that many white people resort to whenever a black person or another person of color expresses their experience with racism.

    You can dig up study after study, research after research, video after video, testimony after testimony, expert after expert, scholar after scholar, scientist after scientist from the most prestigious academic, journalistic, and scientific institutions in the entire world and it won’t matter a single, solitary bit.

    Whatever proof you show — whether it is evidence to demonstrate the presence of systemic racism or social racism; implicit racism or explicit racism; conscious racism or unconscious racism — will never be enough. They will employ every move-the-goal-post, bait-and-switch, logical-fallacy, false-equivalence, appeal-to-the-absurd, argumentum-ad-dictionarium, beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt, bar-raising, unrealistic-expectation, persnickety-pseudo-science tactic at their disposal to deny that what you’ve brought forth is solid and correct — or even mildly reasonable. And the gag is that if you don’t bring it forth, they’ll accuse you of being The Real Racist ®. They think this is the perfect no-win situation in which to place you.


    They will ask you if you can read the minds of white people. Yes. That’s their favorite one. That’s their standard of proof. The only way you will be able to prove racism to these white folks is if you’re telepathic. And even then, they’d question the accuracy of your telepathic abilities and will request a white telepath to verify your knowledge — and they will only believe the white telepath if they disagree with you and agree with them. Anything to avoid having to confront and admit that racism exists, that they benefit from it, and often participate in and perpetuate it.


    https://medium.com/SonofBaldwin/the-white-people-who-need-proof-of-racism-b59cb342c096

    Personally I need to prove jack to these a-holes
     
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  2. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Who cares? If you don't like black people, you don't hang out with them. If you don't like racists, you don't hang out with racists. Racism is real, but the contemporary Western narrative regarding racism is rather exaggerated. Nonetheless, this is kind of uninteresting and constantly bringing it up is counterproductive.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  3. Thanos36

    Thanos36 Member

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    Systematic racism is very hard avoid. While I think most systematic racism has gone away, there is still parts of systematic racism that exists today. The War On Drugs being one of the defacto examples, but also in some aspects of schooling and housing. Also I've found access to capital and trade starts to look racist, depending on what level you're trying to get at. Also starting businesses and having to navigate a mostly pro-white and pro-foreign city government (in most cities) is also an issue. The perpetuates a cycle of poverty because not enough poor minorities are able to start businesses and employ people in their community. Cities would rather make it hard for them to start these businesses but give whites and foreigners full access.
     
  4. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. Chinese and Indian Americans have zero trouble with housing, education, or business. This renders your entire argument worthless.
     
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  5. Thanos36

    Thanos36 Member

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    A lot easier to get access when you come and you already have money. Most foreigners don't come here poor. And if thry are poor, the first thing they're doing is getting theur mastets at a decent school.

    And I've already mentioned most cities are pro foreign.
     
  6. Jimmy79

    Jimmy79 Banned

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    Most first and second generation immigrants to the US prosper. They start to trend down after that.
     
  7. VietVet

    VietVet Well-Known Member

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    "Whatever proof you show — whether it is evidence to demonstrate the presence of systemic racism or social racism; implicit racism or explicit racism; conscious racism or unconscious racism — will never be enough. They will employ every move-the-goal-post, bait-and-switch, logical-fallacy, false-equivalence, appeal-to-the-absurd, argumentum-ad-dictionarium, beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt, bar-raising, unrealistic-expectation, persnickety-pseudo-science tactic at their disposal to deny that what you’ve brought forth is solid and correct — or even mildly reasonable. And the gag is that if you don’t bring it forth, they’ll accuse you of being The Real Racist ®. They think this is the perfect no-win situation in which to place you. "

    Case in point...
     
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  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Cr@p. The Chinese diaspora have been prospering outside of China for centuries.
     
  9. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah, lets just pretend every non-white migrant made-good started with a silver spoon in his/her mouth ... after all, it might help to justify the failings of certain minorities.

    Just drawing attention to your statement, bolded by moi. Out of the mouths of babes.
     
  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    There is no proof. There is only a deeply visceral aversion to the reality of POCs zooming past whites in America. Why aversion? Because it puts the lie to claims of systemic racism.
     
  11. Thanos36

    Thanos36 Member

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    Legal immigration to the USA is highly selective, and most immigrants come here to fill jobs that Americans by and large are unqualified for. So the assertion that most immigrants generally tend to do better financially than most multi generational Americans isn't far fetched. I've worked in STEM for 15 years, and for the last 10 of those 15 years, I've worked heavily with offshore teams from China and India. A majority of my co-workers have been these model minority asians. They simply do not have the struggles the average American would have. And that's really hard to debate. People want to make it seem like it's genetics, but the reality is that we don't get the poorest and most down trodden Asians. We go out the way to bring the best over here to the USA.

    So if I'm a guy and the first thing I do is get sponsored to go to MIT and so I can work on my Masters in Computer Science. Chances are that I'm probably not going to struggle too much in the job market. Foreigners also look out for each other a lot more in the job market as well. Nepotism is pretty heavy among Asian employers (especially from China) and they're far more likely to staff their own. Which is somewhat of a double standard, but given how much Asians dominate STEM in the USA, it's never really brought up.

    Really comparing these people to blacks or even whites in America who are born into poverty is just ridiculous. It's going to be much harder for any poor American to even reach that level. Now I didn't say it was "impossible". But it is VERY VERY hard. You basically have to make 0 mistakes, and pretty much do everything perfectly. Which is not easy if you're born into poverty, where most of the people around you are anti-intellectual, and you may not get the right type of reinforcements when trying to achieve. And this is true for both black and white Americans. Unfortunately with all of the regulations, it's far harder to start small businesses since governments tend to bleed small businesses dry (or greatly inhibit their growth). So the "college/good job" track is all most poor people have to cling to, and that's incredibly difficult without the right scholarships and financial support. Something that majority of the foreigners coming to America have plenty of.
     
  12. Brewskier

    Brewskier Well-Known Member

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    It's called "Affirmative action", the only codified racism still on the books. Funny thing, blacks like it!
     
  13. willburroughs

    willburroughs Well-Known Member

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    Of course racism from whites exists. But one would find whites a lot more willing to acknowledge it if it would also be readily acknowledged that racism from blacks to whites is just as prevalent and destructive.
     
  14. Thanos36

    Thanos36 Member

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    Blacks don't really benefit from affirmative actions. I'm not a fan of affirmative action, simply because my libertarian views aren't in line with the government telling you who you should hire. But I also don't pretend that the biggest beneficiaries aren't white women. It has been proven time and time again that white women get the most mileage of of affirmative action.

    However to pretend that affirmative action is the only form of systematic racism is a bit disingenuous. The drug war is a far worse example of systematic racism. But I feel racism is the symptom of the drug war, and not the root or reasoning behind it. But as it stands today, the drug war has destroyed the economic base of black and latin communities all over the USA.
     
  15. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't be pretending it would be accurate.
    Show me where law stipulates people of a certian race get stiffer penalties for drug offenses.

    Thats because proportionally they commit the crimes in those numbers. It is all based on the behavior of the offender not any vague concept of racism
     
  16. Thanos36

    Thanos36 Member

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    The fact that you dare ask this in 2017, shows me you know very little about this topic. But the smoking gun is stiffer penalties for crack vs cocaine. Crack being seeing mostly as a "black drug" and cocaine being a "white drug" (due to it's cost). There is little reason why crack would carry harsher penalties than cocaine, but here we are today. It has given police an excuse to disproprotinately target black communities and ignore white ones.

    But even if we were to overlook the above. Heroin use is on the rise in the white community, and meth has been an issue in the white community for over a decade. However we have not seen police ramp up their forces to arrest whites in nearly the same number as blacks. Even if we were to break it down in porportions, there should still be more arrest for whites than blacks (based on pure numbers alone). But there isn't. Now why is this?

    The drug war is HEAVILY slanted to target minorities. I can't believe anyone would even debate this in this day and time.



    Drug crimes are not disproportionately black. Only crime where blacks commit more of is murder. But most blacks are not in jail for murder, majority of the blacks in jail for something related to drug offenses
     
  17. Cigar

    Cigar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Intelligent People don't need to be Shown, because they have the mental capacity and intelligence to do their own research.

    People who need to be "shown" all the time, don't like the Truth when it's presented and wouldn't be able to recognize the truth anyway. .
     
  18. Thanos36

    Thanos36 Member

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    This is why I don't really start sourcing things until I'm sure that the other person is willing to have an intelligent conversation. Otherwise the "debate" becomes nitpicking articles and sources. The person requesting the sources aren't ready to believe them even when presented. So it becomes a bunch of lazy link posting that themselves source "studies" and most of the studies aren't even substantiated.

    This is why my talking points include things that are easy to debunk if they're untrue. The crack vs cocaine sentencing. The rise of heroin in the white community, and white people taking meth (one of the the deadliest and destructive drugs in the last decade). Yet the same police response isn't there. I mean it's not far fetched to believe that if the motive behind the drug war is really to "stop drugs", then why aren't we really seeing police in white communities at the same level?

    No matter how you slice it, it's at minimum extremely biased law enforcement. But it's a very clear indication of systematic racism. I personally have never been a fan of the War On Drugs at all. And I personally think we should legalize them and call them a day. But using their own logic, there isn't any reason why whites shouldn't be implicated on drug charges at the same rate if not higher than blacks.
     
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  19. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Or this is an attempt to say disagreement with you equates to ignorance. Such tactics will not work on me. I willnot be shamed into agreement.

    Unless you can show a difference between black people and white people this isn't a smoking gun. There is no such thing as a "black drug" or a "white drug." As for different penalties i think it's stupid to penalize anybody for using drugs.

    IMO Penalising drug use in general isn't reasonable. So stiffer penalties for one over another is a moot point.

    And again unless you can show me a stiffer penalty for a black person using crack over a white person using crack you have assumptions.

    Explain how you reached this conclusion.

    That is assuming the proportions of crimes committed by whites are equal to the proportions of crimes committed by blacks. The only way we have to measure that is by FBI analysis and it indicates that the proportions are appropriate.

    Minorities such as what? Asians, disabled persons, Canadian immagrants? I wouldn't argue such a vague meaningless claim.

    The war on drugs is slanted more toward Hispanics and blacks only not minorities. The arrest rate for Jews isn't higher than for whites. It has **** to do with them being minorities and everything to do with their actions.





    Or they are.
    And they are in jail in the exact proportions in which they commit crimes.
     
  20. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Ah the old standby for claims that can't be supported. The personal incredulity fallacy.

    Only idiots would need to be shown proof of my claim. That's **** debate son. And if that's all you got then it seems your claims are false and you know they are.

    more of this incredulity fallacy. Basically you're just calling everyone that doesn't agree with you too stupid to understand.

    That is in an argument it proves nothing and convinces no one.

    You're not going to get me to believe that only sophisticated people can see The Emperor's New Clothes. I'm not that gullible.
     
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  21. Thanos36

    Thanos36 Member

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    I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this. The fact that you think your responses are coming from anything other than ignorance, shows me you've barely researched this subject. I don't discuss important things like the war on drugs with just anyone. I only discuss this topic with informed people who are ready to come up with solutions. You pretending it isn't a problem (after 40 years of failure) just isn't the ideal company I would prefer around me when discussing this very SERIOUS issue. The war on drugs have been the biggest civic and civil liberty violation in the USA and probably within the western world. So it's important that this topic is look at from honest lenses. You're way to ready to delve into partisan nonsense, and that won't render any productive conversation.
     
  22. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    because your claims are false.

    calling people ignorant for not agreeing with you is not an argument.

    I don't believe in Black drugs that is racist that is stupid and I don't accept it. You cannot show me how white people are not criminalized equally to black people for the use of the same drug so you're claimed that this black drug is racist and ignorant.

    my guess is you would claim anyone as ignorant who disagree with your unsupported claims. And the fact that you insulate yourself from any criticism of your antecedently held beliefs means you're prejudiced.

    meaning you only discuss things with people within your Echo chamber. I have a mind of my own and if you only want people who you can control with your stupid little bully tactics then Enjoy the Silence of your Echo chamber it is shrinking.

    on this I agree with you.
    you aren't being honest you're saying legitimate criticisms of your antecedently held beliefs and prejudices are just because everyone that holds them is ignorant that isn't honest that's projection of everyone that disagrees with you must then be wrong.

    The truth is you can't show me a stiffer penalty for a white person using crack cocaine then you can a black person using crack cocaine only that would be systemic racism.

    you likely call every statement that goes against your Prejudice beliefs partisan nonsense to protect yourself from criticism. It is very dishonest for you to sit here and tell me that you want an honest debate when you're not willing to participate in one.
    perhaps you should try being a little less pig-headed. Drop the bigotry listen to opinions and statements that may not sync up with things you already believe. That is the only way to hold it on this discussion.

    To suggest people are just stupid because they don't agree with you about something you can't present as existing is just a fallacy unto itself call the personal incredulity.

    I don't find you to have any Superior intelligence just because you take your beliefs seriously. Does claiming anyone who challenges those views ignorant just for challenging them without supporting them is essentially saying how beautiful The Emperor's New Clothes are and only smart sophisticated people can see them I'm not that gullible. This really Elementary level tactic might work on the few lower information posters but it doesn't work on me.

    You made the positive claims the burden of proof is on you that is held debate works if you cannot meet the burden of proof the claim is then questionable if you can't tolerate question you cannot debate logically. Which is aparent based on your use of fallacies
     
  23. Just_a_Citizen

    Just_a_Citizen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah OP, racism bad.

    You're not cool with non-whites being racist too of course, ... Right?
     
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  24. Cigar

    Cigar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Being angry 24/7; you must lose a lot of calories.
    How do you make it through a day, knowing there's so many Brown People invading you Sure White Space?
     
  25. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Projecting feelings onto somebody because you were called out. Must be humiliating. Projecting some air of arrogance and pretending like you aren't humiliated or pretending that what you say is true must be emotionally taxing I bet you consume a lot of calories.
     

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