I am an atheist. I live in Europe. I used to be a Christian. Most of my family and friends are Christian. I don't believe there is a God. I don't know this to be a fact. I was agnostic which to me is the undecided state. I knew no less or more regarding evidence. US atheist seem to think that as an agnostic they didn't "know" but now that they are an atheist they somehow know. You have simply made a decision. The religious are not our enemy, just people who beliefe that which we do not. Please stop insulting Christians. This is immature and irresponsible. European atheists are enjoying an acceptance among the religious and secular world as after centuries of being feared and hated we can now relax and say what we are. US militant atheist seems to be keen to revert to the middle ages. I understand religion is responsible for much that is wrong. Insulting those who take the positive side of it will not fix this.
keep religion out of government, government doesn't need to be saying there "is" or "is not" a God... if that is done, everyone can get along
Anyone who believes in imaginary friends and are adults ,regardless of why, don't deserve the respect of others just pity and I include the mentally ill who actually have a reason to be delusional. But if they withdraw from the public sphere so will I, they keep foisting their delusions on others and using it in the public sphere such as politics I won't retreat or surrender the field they had millennia of this garbage and its time to end it so our species can advance using reason not superstition.
I keep hearing this about deserving this or that, and I keep coming back to how little I care about what someone deserves. If an action, such as befriending someone, can bring someone to the point where they will listen honestly to your arguments and take a more constructive view of the world, I couldn't care less about what they supposedly deserve.
Regrettably there is a segment of the atheist population that simply hates religion and choose to see only the negative effects it has had on our civilization. Fact is religion has also been tremendously positive for billions of people. It's sense of communion is the ultimate expression of tribalism. The fact that it also engenders brutal exclusion is a given, despite whatever its scriptures and dogma may preach. Many people are not equipped to deal with such intellectual issues as "where did we come from, why are we here, what happens to me when I die" nor can they formulate their own moral code, they cannot resist their own indoctrination and do not have the capacity or desire to question it. for these people religion provides them with both answers and solace when confronted by the fear of mortality. I am an agnostic atheist who rejects all religious dogma. that does not mean that I don't share some moral beliefs or that I reject the wisdom to be found in scriptures because in the end it is simply human wisdom. As for the religious not deserving respect, Are some self righteous religious people not worthy of respect because of their actions and statements? Absolutely, but to suggest that all theists are not worthy of basic respect is to be petty, intolerant and hateful.
If group A is made up of people that you interact with regularly in person and group B is made up of people who you primarily see online, group B is almost always going to come off as more confrontational and "mad." No surprise there. Atheists on both sides of the pond insult Christians and act immature and irresponsible . . . just like everyone else. We get tired of hearing "But how can you be good if you don't believe in God?" and "Oh, so you just know everything?" and most of us respond quite peacefully in our face-to-face interactions and take out our frustrations in online interactions . . . again, just like everyone else.
A good post but I am left to wonder if Christians in Europe are in general as militant as the extreme right Christians here in America? If not then that would explain a lot. The reason being that extreme is often met by an opposing extreme. IMO if Christians as a whole were more tolerant and less judgmental then there would be far fewer militant atheists.
Agreed, but they're not deserving of respect simply because they have religion. They may be respected for other things, but for this, no. Where is their skepticism?
And anyone who is so arrogant, so filled with an ego, as to believe that they know if there is a creator or not, also do not deserve respect of others, just pity, for their ego arrogance. So, you and the people you have a problem with, are not different. Both of you make claims, while the truth is, neither one of you know jack squat. Both assume to know. So pot, meet kettle. The only people who have any honestly and integrity, not to mention humility, are people who say, I DO NOT KNOW. Egos are such monstrous ugly things.
Out of all the things that have to do with religion, wars, terror, indoctrination, gay rights, abortion issues and many, many others, why is it your understanding of who deserves respect what should govern our actions? The fact that respectful discourse is much more likely to influence people to better themselves and their surroundings strikes me as much relevant than whether or not you think imaginary friends is respectable.
The person doesn't have to be respected simply because they have religion, but I believe one should respect their right to believe whatever the hell they want to. That is as long as they don't attempt to impose such beliefs on others. So skeptics should be respected because they are skeptical?
Interesting, since two of the most outspoken were not from the US (Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins), with Dawkins even giving a TED talk about militant atheism and his movie The God Delusion. Not trying to deflect, but rather show that it's not constrained so tightly to the US only.
Thanks for the thoughtful, unifying post. I have never really understood the hostility over perceptions over the supernatural, origins, & personal beliefs. Its not like there is any empirical, absolute evidence for any philosophical view, yet the proponents of a particular view defend their opinion to the death! Atheism is merely a belief.. it is based on a naturalistic view of the universe, which cannot be proven any more than a supernaturalistic view. But atheism in America is becoming more militant & intolerant. They have enjoyed the freedom that the christian based principles of tolerance & freedom have given them, but they do not return the favor. It is very perplexing. Many of the militant atheists are more obsessed with God than devout theists..
Some days I agree with your position, but some days I just feel a need to point out that using a guy who got himself nailed to a cross as your role-model in your decision making may not be the most brilliant plan regardless of your seeing the glass half-full or half-empty. Just depends on context, the position of Mars, and my fiber intake I suppose.
I think this is a faulty perception. These are NOT things to do with 'religion', but HUMANS. There have been easily as many or more man's inhumanity to man in atheistic institutions & nations as theistic ones. So the only common denominator is that they are all HUMAN. Human beings are capable of a great deal of altruism, but also a great deal of barbarism. Some 'religions' celebrate the altruistic, & encourage it. Others celebrate the barbarous side. If you're going to attribute barbarism to the ideology, you have to show how, otherwise you are just noting the common denominator of humanity. IMO, most people do not see the connection between their ideology & their consequential actions. There is a lot of disconnect, & people do not always act on their stated beliefs. This is true in both theistic & atheistic philosophies. It is another indicator of humanity, nothing else. Sure, its easy to blame the ideology, especially if you don't personally like it, but many of the actions that people do are merely human ones, driven by normal human instincts, & have little to do with their stated ideology.
I have also noted, that threads like this, which promote consideration, a rational debate, & tolerance of diversity lose their appeal very quickly. Instead, polemical threads, with wild eyed ranters screaming hateful invectives against any dissenters to their personal views go for hundreds of pages & dominate the forum. That is more of a peculiarity of the human animal, & the need for hysteria & emotion. Calm reason does not meet that need.
Europeans also complain even America invades the Middle East, but what Europeans don't realize is that America is constantly under threat.
I'm sorry but this thread is just rubbish. Most American atheists are no different to European atheists, you just don't hear from them because they're not doing any of the things we see the minority of noisy idiots doing. You're no better than the people who attack us for things people like Dawkins or Hitchens say.
Agreed, just most of us do not want Sharia\Biblical law creeping into our government, if we want to have some religion in out life we will seek it out, no need to use government to force it on people http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/history_of_the_separation_of_chu.htm "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one. - Benjamin Franklin: in letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780" .
America is constantly under threat because people resent the crap we do overseas. It isn't that they are jelly we are a bright shining city on a hill. It is because we can't keep our noses out of their business.
Claiming that something does not exist in which no evidence for has ever been shown in not arrogant or egotistical. I make the claim "you are a rapist". I provide no evidence or proof. Should we all just say I don't know. . .and if we don't we are egotistical and arrogant to believe you aren't a rapist in the light of no evidence or proof of the claim?
I agree that religion and government should be separate. OTOH, biblical law has been "creeping" around secular law since day one. There are a number of laws on the books that are the direct reflection of certain religious beliefs. OTOH, I don't believe it to be a theist plot to create a theocracy, just the way we humans function.
