Virginia-Based Imam Sulaiman Jalloh: Allah Willing, America Will Be a Muslim Nation

The punishment is not stated in the Quran.

 

The punishment for leaving Islam is death, not lashes, death.

 

I love it when posts are self-refuting.

So unless I accept your formulation that Islam is to blame even for things that are not unique to Islam, I don’t have “intellectual stones”? Nice closed circle you have there.

See, like you, I oppose abhorrent things done in the name of religion — or anything.

But unlike you, I recognize that many things done in the name of religion do not actually spring from that religion, and that EVERY religion has been used to justify abhorrent things at one point or another. So I think it ‘s important to identify the ACTUAL cause of the problem.

You implicitly agree with me when you say that the problem is fundamentalist interpretations of holy books. That puts the blame on the INTERPRETATION, not the book itself.

But you say that out of one side of your mouth, then also insist that Islam is bad — which contradicts your agreement that it is the fundamentalist interpretation that is the problem.

So is the problem Islam, or the fundamentalist interpretation of Islam? Pick one and stick with it.

Since my point is that much of what you criticize Islam for could be said about ANY religion, and that it is a double standard to call out Islam on this while giving other religions a pass, of course I’m going to point out that other religions do the same thing. That isn’t “changing the subject”; that IS the subject.

I get that when someone has a double standard as large as yours, you’d rather talk about your obsession in isolation. But that goes to the flaw in your position, not mine.

You wish to criticize abhorrent things done in the name of Islam. Great! There are many such things, and they deserve criticism.

But have the intellectual integrity (i.e., “stones”) to admit that much of what you criticize predates Islam, or could have been said about ANY religion at some point in its history. Have the “stones” to recognize the existence of moderate Muslims, rather than tarring the entire religion with the actions of its most extreme adherents.

 

I keep seeing people say the interpretation.
That is not the case, it is the manipulation, or which verses does our sect comply to.

 

The actual cause is written into Islamic dogma.

Now you have to deal with the people who follow it.

Muhammed, the main character, who can do no wrong, is documented in rapes, thievery, and murder.

You don't see too many other religions where that is done.
Usually the main character is a role model.

 

That is true of every religion, and is merely another word for interpretation.

Just about every holy book contains contradictions and abhorrent verses. Which is why you can use ANY religion to justify anything, if you try hard enough.

Buddhism may be the most explicitly pacifist religion on the planet, and yet people have used it to justify violence.

As religions evolve, they cope with inconvenient passages by ignoring them or re-interpreting them. Which is why most mainstream Christian churches ignore huge parts of the Old Testament and many of the thornier passages in the New. It’s why Islam has redefined Jihad as a personal, internal struggle (inner Jihad) and has also found moderate interpretations of outer Jihad — defending the faith through intellectual debate, for instance. Which also happens to be consistent with the MANY passages in the Koran that advocate peace, mercy and tolerance.

Are there passages in the Koran that advocate violence? Of course. As I said, holy books are contradictory. But there are equally abhorrent passages in the Bible. In both cases, modern interpretations either ignore those passages, or restrict them to their historical context, or use them as metaphors for struggle.

It’s all about the interpretation.

 

Please don’t make the mistake of insisting that all Muslims must be fundamentalists, bound by a literal interpretation of the Koran. Unless you would make the same argument for all religions.

 

You're missing something here.
The Qur'an is 14% of Islamic text, and much of the violence in there is vague.
The Sunnah is where all the juicy stuff is.
In Muhammeds first bio. you can open to any page.
In 80% of the text, he is robbing, raping, or killing someone.
The murders are graphic, and many
The tortures are graphic,
The rapes are graphic.
And nothing is open to interpretation.

And most muslims never even read this but a cleric or Iman can show it to you when you are needed.

 

You are using Qur'an again where it does not apply.
Muslims have that perpetual sword over their heads, if they argue the religion.
Other religions don't.

 

The Sunnah is a secondary authority. Quran is primary. And talk about contradictions!

Stop insisting that Muslims must be fundamentalists, reading everything literally. Practically NO religion does that.

 

You need the sunnah to understand the Qur'an.

How about Muhammed, remember him, the main character,
He is not in the Qur'an, mentioned 4 times, and at least 3 could be someone else, but nothing about him.

You have in the messenger, a beautiful pattern of conduct to follow. ( Qur'an)

How do you learn about muhammed to follow this pattern.

If I gave you a bible, and took out, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John,
How would you learn about Jesus.

 

Fact remains, the Sunnah has many, many internal contradictions, just like any holy writing, so insisting it must be taken literally and in toto is wrong.

 

There are lots of contradictions, I could name several off the top of my head,
However Taburi confirms much of Ishaq, and later on so does Bukhari and Muslim.
It delivers a homicidal maniac, an insatiable sexual pervert, a crime boss. A thief, a torturer.
It graphically describes raids, the distribution of booty.
There is very little that says, what we would consider nice things, about Muhammed.

and there is nothing to use the excuse interpretation.
Unlike the Qur'an, It is written very plainly


This is why we are having so many problems with Muslims, and if a moderate stands up, and says this is wrong, he could lose his head.

 

Great, you don’t like Muhammad.

So please explain the existence of hundreds of millions of peaceful, moderate Muslims.

 

There is a big difference between Muslims, and Islam.
Muslims are human beings, susceptible to outside forces to guide their lives.

Islam is a written religious documentation.

Most muslims read only the Qur'an, and few know the correct way to read it, to understand what can be understood.
These are at the bidding of their clerics and Imans for which direction they go.
Humans are basically good IMO, and need influences in their lives.
Most Muslims would rather the other guy does the killing, while they just go along with it.
Muslims are basically a secret army, quiet until their cleric calls.
We won't see the major problems here until the enclaves develop.

I never met any muslims who actually took the time to read the sunnah, so they pretty much think what they are told to think.
Keep in mind, they are ordered to lie about the intents of the religion to the kaffir.

 

Post a link to Muhammed's bio.

 

It is quoted, fromthe Koran, in the post right above yours. So you made that up. Again. Notice a pattern?

 

I see stuff here all the time, where I will confront a muslim, and he never even heard of some of the stuff I write.

On the other hand, as is now, muslms will back off and not say a thing, because they know I can prove everything I say.

It's these muslims, in a free country, who should be joining the movements denying the religion as pure evil.

 

You have not attributed a single thing to Islam. Not a single thing. So I am not sure who you think you are fooling, here.

Which is 100% incorrect, as I explained in great detail already. (By the way, you ignored that post, which was clearly an error on your part) I give no religions a pass. I can point out christian nastiness stemming directly from the Bible. However, it is a fact that Christianity has benefited more from reform, while Islam has a huge problem today and needs to be reformed. Your refusal to acknowledge this, and your refusal to put the blame where it belongs -- on the horrible ideas in Islam -- reflects on you, not me. Stop trying to blame me for your goose-stepping.

 

It sure would be nice if Muslims would do less of that.

 

Ishaq is the first, Taburi is second.


The Surat Rasual Allah ( Ishaq's Sira)
https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfMohammedGuillaume

There are a few of them now.

The history of Al Taburi has just come online

https://archive.org/details/TabariEnglish

 

When you read these, if you do, I can tell you what you will say.

WTF, This isn't a religion, this is a street gang, a terrorist,
and you will have a completely different outlook.

OR,

You will say , wow, this is cool where do I join ISIS.

 

You realize that the Christian Reformation did not rewrite the Bible, right? It’s exactly the same book. Only interpretations changed.

Maybe our disconnect is semantic. When you blame “Islam”, I hear you claiming there is something inherently wrong with the religion — something unlike other religions.

And the problem is, I don’t see that — I see nothing going on with Islam that hasn’t happened with EVERY other religion on the planet. You can say Islam is the CURRENT problem in that regard, but it is absolutely NOT unique.

But then you say “Islam needs reformation”, and I think maybe we agree. Because that is not saying there is something inherently wrong with Islam. It’s saying there is something wrong with some current interpretations of it, and it needs to develop some more modern interpretations.

But when I say that and suggest we agree, you respond negatively and go back to blaming Islam.

So can you clarify? Is there something inherently wrong with Islam that makes it unlike other religions? Or is the problem simply that at this time in history, Islam is the religion currently suffering most from a fundamentalist phase?

 

Well, when i said "reform away from literal interpretation of the Bible", I think I made that clear.

Yes it is. That is precisely what it says, when i say it. Just as Christian reform was reform away from literal interpretation of the Bible, Islam needs reform away from literal interpretation of the disgusting , evil ideas in the Koran.

Yes, there is something wrong with Islam. It is a disgusting, evil fantasy written by ignorant people in the bronze and iron ages.

 

The written documentation is all killing, raping, and thievery, giving 20% to the leader.

No other religion is like that.

You can cherry pick, and find controversial verses in the NY.

But in Muhammeds Bio. you have to look really hard, to cherry pick something nice.