Brilliant point about how politicians and others can attack Australians recieving unemployment welfare benefits, but these same people want 457 visa applicants to come into Australia and take the employment away from Australian workers. Then they whinge & whine about Australians on unemployment and how unemployment is rising. Stop the 457 visa's from taking Australian jobs, and train Australians to do these jobs, and just maybe the unemployment rate will fall, and these unemployed individulas will become functioning and contributing members of society. There was a media circus about 3 years ago about a business bringing in 457 visa workers, because he reckoned he could not find specialist welders where his business was located. When the media investigated the reports, they discovered there were at least 10 registered unemployed Australian welders with employment companies capable of doing the work in and around the same area where the business was operating. Even the media started to question how easy it was for a business to bring in and hire 457 visa workers over Australian workers under the current policy and guidelines of the Government.
Excellent reply! Short sightedness puts welfare in a box.....if you walk around with a pole up your arse!
I'll say it again.... Put the GST up to where it should be. Then increase the benefit paid to the elderly and those unable to work because of disability. Then for those that have the ability to work give them the same benefit they have now but make them work 10 to 20 hours per week in a community service that requires more man power, but can't afford it within their budgets. Pay these individuals the minimum hourly rate on top of their base benefit. This way under manned services get much needed help and individuals get back into a working mindset. Two birds with one stone. And maybe there would be some extra left over to increase the PM' s retirement payments. Mmmmm!!
A very good start, especially the bit about making those who can, work. Nobody should expect to get a free ride, it is not unreasonable to expect those who can, to participate in the production of the goods and services they consume. I disagree about the GST though.
Not a bad idea, but your still dealing with those walking around with poles up their arses who are focused on a small minority of disenfranchised people, of which their hard earned tax contribution will be going to. Gotta keep a few budging bums in society to keep others feeling good about themselves after all!
AM don't you see that by using an increase in the GST you are effectively making welfare recipients fund their own increase. As you allow them to increase their income and thus the quality of their lifestyle, they will buy more goods and services that attract GST and theoretically pay for their own pay rise. By raising the GST by a mere 2.5% you would increase government revenue by billions and this would not only pay for an increase in welfare distribution but also allow for many other financially depleted government services to gain access to vital funds. The raising is not only long overdue, it is becoming vital as government revenue is in decline and expenditure increasing. The pool that revenue is derived from is under pressure, with goods increasingly being purchased from overseas and services relocating to other countries with cheaper labour, and couple this with mass retirement of the baby boomer generation, and we have a very large problem. Personally I think 15% would be great. But only if it was a pure GST, not the deformed version we were wittled down to. I would imagine that the politics involved between the feds and states would be interesting. Then again I would be more than happy to scrap the waste of resources that we call state government.
Many people have been talking about the same model that you suggest. Unfortunately, this will not work with politicians being in control. Politicians will find a way to squander any new revenue raised on top heavy management and bureaucrate positions, and the "ground-roots" services that really need the extra money for additional items and staff will never see any of the new revenue. We have a current situation whereby politicians cannot even sort out the basic wage mess as to why registered nurses working in hospitals are paid more than registered nurses working in aged care centres. Expecting Politicians to competently manage any large scheme or project is completely beyond their intellectual capabilities, and we just shouldn't expect them to do it. 99% of politicians are ex-solicitors who know about the law, and don't know about anything else, and we expect them to know everything about everything. Julia Gillard & Tony Abbott never operated a business before becoming PM. They never even operated a lemonaid-stand in their front yards, but the people voted them in to manage and run the Australian economy and their lives. How the hell can someone who has never operated a business before know or understand the fundamental complexities of operating a business; let alone the economy of an entire country? For Pete's sake, Wayne Swan was a bloody TAFE teacher, and become the countries treasurer. No one goes to their hair-dresser for medical treatments, or their doctor for advise about a broken oven. They go to the appropriate people who specialise in those areas of expertise. Why the hell are Australians willing to vote in unqualified people into Ministerial positions of senior responsibility, and when these people don't live up to expectations, the voters jump up and down like extraordinary has happened. Well people, if you are moronic enough to take your pet to a mechanic of medical treatments, then you get what you deserve.
Just keep rembering people when Julia Gillard was running around the States trying to emotionally blackmail them into financially supporting her National Disability Insurance Scheme saying she could only raise $1 billion. She took out a quick loan to help the International Monetary Fund for $7 billion, and gave away $4 billion in foreign aid to help strangers. When the Victorian State Government took her to task, he accounted that $700million of the Federal money was being allocated towards jobs for managment and bureaucrates, and only $300million was allocated for everyting else. Thats on the public record by the way.
At least Pauline Hanson knew how to run a business and how to work hard. None of the welfare bludgers I know would last more than two days in a busy fish 'n chip shop and most politicians would probably go broke in no time at all.
Pauline lived in the real world with real people, not in an ivory solicitors tower like 99% of the current politicians do. They are all indoctronated early into political factions at University, and when they finish they are given jobs by their political employers, and then put up for candidates at elections - these politicians know nothing about the real world, because they have never lived in the real world. They have been sheltered their entire lives by a more powerful group of people - political parties. we need to cut ties with these cretins, before they destroy Australia, and we end up like Cuba. Can we not do better than stuttering Stanly or Mr Ed as our PM and deputy leader? Both sound like they just stepped off the mental retard train.
Now, I do not need to run about pointing out to you what you have been saying as you challenge your own words in the very same paragraph. If those who read this need further evidence then all they have to do is click on your name and view previous posts... Mmm... Again the point is missed on you isn't it??? You sound like you prefer to remain in the welfare circuit rather than REALLY fix the problem. You look to what people have and have not to justify welfare benefits rather than looking to way to eradicate that NEED. Is the Australian population so frivolous that they cannot see that this exact scenario is the problem??? Do you really believe that Australia can continue to support this mentality??? Well that last question is obvious you do. However, this shallow view (which I begin to wonder all government wants to continue) is all many Australians have. So in other words, you would fix the problem by getting more money to pay for the welfare??? THAT is only prolonging the issue, but hey you talk about knowing the problems... Isn't this a great point, maybe it could be used in some area talking about justice but not really relevant here. Fact remains, this entire comment is based on the fact you would rather the government continue to give money for nothing. I once had you condemn me over the fact of people getting the same opportunity. Welfare reduces that opportunity and replaces it with reliance on Government and you want to prolong and grow the dependence... This issue is about reducing the NEED for welfare, NOT welfare itself. You show that all you want to do is continue the growth of such.
I can only speak for myself, but I am sick to death of these scum-bag politicians being paid obscene salaries to tell me about problems and issues I already know about. They are getting these obscene salaries to tell me HOW they are going to fix these problems and issues, and when they are going to be fixed; not dribble on like some mentally retarded child. The way they fight and carry-on like a pack of prostitutes fighting over a Jon during questions time is intellectually insulting and embarrassing - no class. We can do better than them.
Wouldn't 457 visa workers being brought into Australia logically suggest and imply that Australia doesn't have an unemployment problem, and all Australians are employed; hence the need to being in outside human labour? Or could it actualy represent that Australians giving $4 billion in free aid to these so-called poorer countries are hekping them educated their own people, who are then coming over to Australia as 457 visa workers taking Australian jobs away from Australian workers? Australians are a stupid people, who are funding them with free aid to educate their own people, who are coming over to our country to take our jobs. Could it also represent that Australian politicians would rather financially invest in educating strangers with Australian tax payers money, rather than financially investing in educating their own citizens to fulfil jobs available in their own country before allowing 457 visa workers to enter the country? My word; what atravisty this has become!! Australians financially educating strangers over their own people, and these strangers are coming back into Australia to take Australian jobs. The lack of Australian intellect has surpassed dumbarse and backward.
Forgive me for not commenting to your last post as it brings about another issue entirely. I have looked to all comments in this thread and found (rather surprisingly) that ONLY one poster is addressing the REAL issues with welfare and NOT the shallow area of entitlements. They would rather focus on issues such as WHO are entitled and what people get. They would also focus on HOW to continue to pay for such entitlement rather than address the need to reduce the necessity for welfare in the first place. By simply looking to way of getting MORE tax revenue to address the issues of strangling welfare is simply putting the inevitable off. The fact that DV's little scenario looks to the fact there are less jobs than unemployed is classic example to begin with. Again, while Australians run about looking only to the fact there are fewer jobs they do not realize that 457 visas take away jobs from Australians. 457 visas were introduced to fill positions when unemployment was at record low. NOW unemployment rises under the ALP governance and they continue to increase the number of 457 visas. I am yet to see how the Coalition will address the issues of 457 visas, that is coming soon. Sure the noises are there about it but few really look to the future impact of such increases which is increased unemployment with reduced revenue. For those that are unaware, foreign workers are repaid the tax they pay when they leave return home. If youre wise about how work overseas, you will never pay tax in Australia while you work the rest of your life in Australia And this simply looks to one aspect of this issue and forgets the loss of manufacturing (jobs). Welfare is a problem that encompasses many different points that have nothing to do with welfare to reduce the need for it I just point to one minor issue to show this. Fact is while the discussion remains on how to fund welfare it is simply putting off the inevitable and make the problem far worse in the future
AND there lays the problem, BUT so far nobody wants to fix that problem just prolong it. - - - Updated - - - Is trolling all you want to do??? OR do you really want to contribute???
We don't have a problem in this country. LOL Lets keep bringing over 20,000 refugess every year that require housing we don't have, medical care that's being streched like a rubber band - thinner & thinner; jobs we don't have even for our own citizens; education standards that is becoming a world joke and put more kids in classrooms; increase our food supply and make it more expensive - ect, ect. Lets keep allowing people to migrate to Australia knowing the above is real and happening. Hell, lets just not worry about anything until its too late, it will sort itself out. Isn't that the Aussie motto? Lets increase 457 visas, but unemploymet is sky-rocketing due to manufacturing abandoning Australia in droves. We can alway go out in the back yard and pick some spare cash off those money trees. Isn't that the Aussies motto? Don't worry about it. I'm positive Mr Ed's backroom union boy's, and stuttering Stanley's league of extrordinary gentlement are working on catchy slogans this very minute that will have mindless seals clapping for more before the next election rolls around.
I dont have a doubt in my mind that I could serve human shyte mixed with ginger and cinnomon in a pastry, and Aussies would go for it!! IMO they are that self-obsessed with stupidity. I can explain most concepts and ideas to the most stupidist 10 year old, who eventually understands, but the majority of Aussise cannot even grasp the concept of the point.
Firstly Garry lets break down the issue of entitlement. I agree that this is an issue. I think in a country such as ours with the lifestyle we enjoy, our people should feel entitled to believe that if the sh!t hits the fan in their lives they will have some form of insurance. The issue being, as with most good things, there is an ever increasing number exploiting the concept. It is those individuals that fire up the ire of hardworking Australians. This issue is certainly aided by the system itself. So therefore we need to reduce this mindset by changing aspects of the system. In my first post I used an idea of base salary and work for the dole. This by no means is perfect as there will still be those that just want to receive the base payment. Hopefully however there will be a reasonable number that improve mentally and the shift in their own self worth will motivate them to find gainful fulltime employment. If they don't so be it, they are committed to the improvement of social renovation and are after all employed part time. Leaving the GST benefit aside. For those that wish to continue in their endeavour to bludge the system, we can then enforce the threat of national service. Not the kind of national service we have known in the past, but one more flexible in its application. Not only would the armed services be an option, but also the police, fire brigade, and ambulance service. All under manned in their own rights. You never know some may just decide to stay on, say may then decide that the first option was better. All in all there is an issue and it needs addressing. I do not believe working for your payment is the answer, as there is little incentive to want to work. BUT actually getting paid what you deserve would not only be of benefit mentally but also financially. The desire to improve yourself resides in all of us, some just don't know it, because they have never been shown how to discover it. It is a broad over view and hard to put in one post, but hashing out different ideas is usually called brainstorming and every now and then an answer can be uncovered
I don't mean to be derogatory here but the reason I posted to your first post is that it was closer to what I am trying to make people think about. The issue is not welfare itself, it is not unemployment benefits, it is not how to pay for it and what people should do to get it. The issue is that people NEED IT in the first place. Why should a working family need family payment to survive??? Why should corporations need corporate welfare to compete on global scale??? Why should Australians need unemployment while government is offering 457 visas to foreigners and thousands sit in detention doing NOTHING while waiting for asylum status (I know that last one but it stands against 457 visas)??? The fact is that Australians should be looking to ways of eradicating the needs for welfare and not simply trying to work out ways to make it look good. Working for the dole, while I agree that is good in terms of people’s mental health and nation building it does nothing to address the issues of addressing an ever increasing welfare bubble. While the ALP was in power the increased costs to manufacturing these drones on this forum could not understand has pushed the manufacturing sector to edge of existence in Australia. Losses of many jobs due to that stupidity has increased the demand for welfare and reduced the support base to pay for it and NOW they sit there patting themselves on the back for being such good supporters. BUT and I say this without the knowledge of the first budget of the Coalition, the Coalitions talk in opposition has vanished. That glimpse of a problem that the ALP wanted to use against them, of the welfare bubble created by GOVERNMENT simply looked to be that, a glimpse. I understand what you mean by brainstorming and all I want is people to think about these problems, but not superficially. Again the point is NOT welfare itself, because some Australians will always need it. The point is WHO needs welfare and why. Everybody needs to look at eradicating NEED of welfare that is unsustainable such as family payments and such. THIS in no way is talking about eradicating the welfare itself... Australians HAVE to stop looking at ways to stop paying and look at ways to stop the NEED to pay...
Totally agree. The fact is that you can control people and to a point their actions by increasing the need they have for you. Australians in my view always want something for nothing, so when a government rides in promising such, they welcome it with open arms, and thus the dependency begins. I am talking politically here and why I believe the system is driven in the direction it is. Dependency is a debilitating disease. Politicians know this and prey on it. Like a perverted drug dealer, guaranteeing further business by creating addiction. Going into the last few elections, if I heard one person say, "it depends on what they promise", or, "what are they going to give families", I heard hundreds. Or when a budget is passed, and the media spruik, " no good news for families in budget", like it is a given that they should receive. So yes Garry I do agree with you in that it is the mind set of Australia that creates the entitlement debate
I do realise that you would have to be one of the more reasonable people here. And although you are looking at what I am saying I am still let down (not by your post) that the only other person (no matter how crudely stated) that is actaully looking to the depths of the problem is CD. True that it seems the media and many outspoken people are looking at what the government is going to give them, which in turn bolsters that entitalment mentality, I do believe a considerable amount of people actually look to this problem with true depth. No matter what the Howard and the ALP believe, I do consider this welfare issue is one of the REAL reasons they were ousted. I could be wrong but I do believe most Australians believe they earn everything they have themselves and believe everybody should as well. Many do consider some of this welfare as their god given right but talk to many and they do not realize that it is welfare. As stated in one of my posts, to address the welfare problem of Australia you must know what welfare actually is. However, simply looking at ways to pay for the welfare really creates ability for government to enable welfare dependency. Again the Coalition made all the right noises but so far we are all waiting with baited breath to see what they do. All except those ALP drones that want nothing more than money for nothing that is... They already think the Coalition is wrong, because they talked about stopping their money for nothing life support.(Sometimes I just cannot help myself)
Firstly do not hang by your balls waiting for the current government to do anything in this regard. It will be suicide by media, and they know it. I understand exactly what you are saying. But I put this to you.... Do you believe that this problem will ever be solved ? If not why ? If so How ? Again, it is so easy to point out the problems but not so easy to find a solution.
Yes, but that is because of the entitlements attitude in Australia today... If only people would wake up to the reality that this continued increase in welfare can only end badly... Yes, one way or another it will be solved. We can only hope Australians solve it themselves before something occurs that forces the issue to the peak... If Australians DON'T solve this problem for itself the country will become bankrupt forcing the issue of inability to pay this welfare. Many tout this to be not in the too far distant but as governments continue to pander to popular politics they may be able to prolong the issue. One thing is for sure, the last ALP government considerably increased the speed of the issue making addressing it far more important. The very first issue is to decrease costs. I know many governments continue to proclaim that they will remove red tape and government costs, but at the end of the day Australia is one of the most regulated countries in the world. It is interesting to hear many businesses will not invest in Australia due to costs of meeting those regulations even in a depressed market... The major issue is to incentivize work and increased productivity rather than linking wages to increasing prices such as the CPI. When people achieve more they should be paid more not simply when cost of living simply increases, this forces increases in productivity which is really the only vital way of reducing wages costs. One conundrum is that welfare increases prices. If people who are reliant on welfare to maintain a standard of living NOT just survive prices increase as demand for unnecessary expenditure rises. If these people did not have this welfare they would not be able to buy that pool or bigger house to have one bedroom for every child. Sure that is an ideal but if you cannot support those things on wages you earn, then why expect the government should kick in for your benefit. In short, without writing a thesis on this point, work ethics, business ethics and public ethics all need to change from the god given write to money for nothing attitude. Australia needs to STOP importing workers who end up contributing nothing (or little), especially when unemployment of the people of Australia is over 5%. After all 457 visas were introduced when Australia was looking at great staff shortages. NOW they are complaining because these workers are not (let us say) talented enough to meet that demand and are taking jobs of Australians. NOW it is just given as a normal policy… The government has to promote Australia’s own business by bringing back better protections for Australian business and not continue to promote the idea of exporting all Australian products and importing all Australian consumption. This has promoted the departure of manufacturing that was previously protected which survived on government welfare. Since this welfare could not continue to support these industries and these industries had NO incentive other than that welfare to remain they have decided to close and import their product. A problem that was created by Government simply removing industry protections and putting Australian business on welfare has been brought undone by government ineptitude. JUST for a start, but as I have continued to point out, this issue has far more to do with policy that is perceived to have nothing to do with welfare. As many continued to tell people they do not understand the impacts of policy such as the carbon tax, they totally miss the point that increasing costs and providing MORE welfare is the fastest way of destroying any economy as not only are you removing the income to pay for that welfare, your increasing the demand on it… Well now, after all that ranting above, I DON”T HAVE THE ANSWERS. I shout that for those that are so ignorant that they simply want to oppose anything I say. Fact is your right; it is SO easy to point the problem out. However, this thread demonstrates people don’t know what the problem is with welfare. My point is to discuss the issue of that REAL problem of the welfare debate NOT what many consider is being discussed because that is the limitation of their understanding. I continue to state, I want people to think for themselves, but much of what I see is people droning along the party line telling me that they know all about these things. If people thought for themselves they just might scare themselves and see exactly what sort of clowns are sitting in Canberra representing them. In the last decade of governance of Australia the only government that seem interested in addressing the issue was the Coalition but apparently they no longer think this issue is worth their attention and the people of Australia have nobody else but themselves to thank for that, with that superficial entitlement attitude.
Good read Garry, and right on so many points. I would love to continue discussion but I am about to board a big jet plane for Indonesia for a few days. If the topic is still hot when I return I shall again partake. as a famous, or should I say, infamous knob once said. I have to zip!
What would be the likely outcome if we withdraw all welfare! Negatives: Small businesses going broke, industries failing, poverty on our streets, low innovation, increase in all types of crime: which will lead to increased mental health problems, which will obviously put extreme pressure on our health systems, increased pressure on on law enforcement, civil wars and countless death, failing public transport facilities, increase in road deaths due to defective vehicles........our prison system would be full to the brim! Positives: Lower incomes, cheaper housing, improved security systems for our mega rich, cheaper recreational drugs, increase in subsistence farming, less food waste, increased employment in law enforcement and health systems, population reduction. Best of all, we will be able to send a message to those bludging unemployed bums who suck so much money from our system who hoard their money by not purchasing goods from their local small businesses....maybe they just invest this free money into failing multi corporations!
