What are you? Liberal? Conservative? Why?....

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by ProgressivePower, Jan 18, 2016.

?

What are you?

  1. Liberal

    16 vote(s)
    13.7%
  2. Conservative

    28 vote(s)
    23.9%
  3. Centrist

    14 vote(s)
    12.0%
  4. Progressive

    10 vote(s)
    8.5%
  5. Libertarian

    28 vote(s)
    23.9%
  6. Anarchist

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Communist

    2 vote(s)
    1.7%
  8. Socialist

    2 vote(s)
    1.7%
  9. Fascist

    6 vote(s)
    5.1%
  10. Democratic Socialist

    11 vote(s)
    9.4%
  1. PreteenCommunist

    PreteenCommunist Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    I guess that helps, but you still have the issue of communists being far more "authoritarian" during the proletarian dictatorship than in full communism. I mean, I'm not even a Leninist, but if curbing counterrevolution means sacrificing some freedom, I will happily make the sacrifice. As long as the proletariat as a class is doing the curbing.
     
  2. rockyreagan

    rockyreagan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,482
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I think it's the "British English vs American English" type of thing going on here, which can make it difficult for people to communicate ideas with each other.

    There are many state worshipers in American Liberalism who worry about government controlling people's personal lives. From what type of light bulb they can buy, to who they have to sell to, to the type of profession or trade you can and can not practice if you don't pay a tax or pay a license for. We know have people who want to control what we eat, drink, smoke, trade with, employee, and what we are even allowed to purchase. Some people unironically push for every sexual act to start with a paper contract. American Liberals have a much more positive view on the bureaucracy, and the state said bureaucracy serves then American Conservatives.

    Sure it's a Utopian ideal. Unfortunately in practice Marxist Leninism leads to the worship of the state under the promise that when all is said and done a stateless society will rise once all the "others" have been defeated. Similar to how Fascist believe that they are ultimately fighting for peace, because once they control the world united under their flag of what it means to be a person, there will be no need for war. Both communist and fascist have Utopian end games, but the means of which they attempt to reach their goal is often much worse then whatever supposed evil they are fighting against.

    As far as the anarchist groups of which their are more types claiming to be the "true" version of what it means to be anarchist then you can shake a stick at, as long as they are peaceful I personally have little against them. I'm far from in agreement with people like Karl Hess, but I don't think they are driven by malice. I also have considerable respect of Lysander Spooner.

    Revolution vs Reaction doesn't really work, because such a set up would simply be based on the time period we are looking at, and the ideology being discussed. The problem with left-right of any kind in the long term, is your dealing with labels that mean different things to different people, and are usually based upon the time and culture you are talking threw. The Revolutionary Guard in Iran would not consider themselves "reactionary", to them they are fighting for their revolution. Like wise they would likely see any Marxist movement as the reactionary return of 19th century ideals. Your dealing with the same problem you have with the word anarchy. You can unironically call yourself an anarchocapitalist, an anarchomarxist, an anarchoindividualist, an anarchodsocialist, and the list goes on and on, well still claiming with to be an anarchist. Even within those categories you have a divided between people who prefer to use military aims, to people who believe being militant is breaking away with first principles therefor only peaceful means can correctly be used to reach an anarchic state. A peace oriented anarchist may argue that a militant needs to create an army to fight his war, which will create a hierarchical structure that will eventually lead to a state in everything but name, at which case the militants are no longer anarchist. So are militant anarchist left wing or right wing for a peace anarchist?

    The only real way I think you could honestly plot the positions people hold, is if you created a type of 3D model. Which is why things are usually simplized, and localized to the time frame and culture you are speaking about. Where does a monarchist sit on a scale set up to show the difference between Marxist-Leninism and Angorism?

    Anarchprimativist will tell you that their views should be on the political left because the ultimate goal is the elimination of the industrialized state and a return to nature. Mean while some American Conservatives believe that a minarchist state is the ultimate ideal, and would move all anarchist movement to their right no matter the ideological undercurrents of said anarchist, simply because they desire to have a stateless society, well the minarchist have desire to have a small state.

    Which is why the simple left-right vocabulary we talk with, really only works so long as everyone agrees what is the left-right scale means. Which doesn't happen beyond a local cultural sense. At least in my view.
     
  3. HailVictory

    HailVictory Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,202
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Well yeah, I mean Stalinist/Leninist communism can be found on the upper left in the political spectrum. Because communism really only refers to the economy, its upper or lower placement on the political spectrum cannot actually be done unless it is based off of some form of government as well. Stalin and Hitler had very similar leadership styles and governing styles, however they simply disagreed on economy. I, of course, support Hitler's economy, which was State owned but allowed for the private sector to actually do the work. He simply moved all the jobs that were owned by the private sector to be owned by the State, and then regulated with discipline. Of course, modern - day people would call it Total War, but it was much more than that. It was actually the perfect balance between Marxism and Capitalism, and was not socialism either. It was truly the Third Alternative. If the State can regulate the private sector when is required for the benefit of mankind, then it eliminates the issues with capitalism, but it still uses currency and allows for a favorable balance of economic trade without being communism. The problem with communism is that there is no median of exchange, it ceases to exist. If everything is owned communally, you have to either pray that everyone does their job, which is rather optimistic, or have to get someone to force everyone to do their job, in which case you have authoritarian communism, which presents its own stock of problems. Anyways, I dont know why I went on that rant, but just some food for thought...
     
  4. greatdanechick

    greatdanechick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,120
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Haha touché! I'm talking more about the right to a safe abortion, cheap if not free birth control, combat positions in the military etc. But, yes I like to get with females too haha! Gay marriage and LGBT discrimination when it comes to housing and employment are huge for me. And I understand the science of climate change and think that our greenhouse gas emissions MUST decrease. I also think over development and over population are driving us into the 6th mass extinction and that we will watch 50% of species go extinct by 2050 if we don't change the way we interact with our planet. I also think those 50% of other species have just as much of a right to exist on this planet as we do, and that we should respect all life not just human life (which we suck at respecting too). Toss a little legalized marijuana and some Doctor assisted suicide on top and you've got a liberal I'd say haha!
     
  5. PreteenCommunist

    PreteenCommunist Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    I don't really think that's the issue (the variety of English which I use sometimes fluctuates between the two, anyway), it's just that the European political spectrum looks quite different from the American one. In my original comment, I could have been referring to either American or European liberalism; the notion that either of them can be carelessly lumped together with fascism is ludicrous.

    Or have I been unclear at communicating something?

    Sure, but most of what you mentioned pertains to the economy. Although liberals want to regulate economic activity, they also tend to be pro-choice, support gay marriage and trans rights and want to keep a certain majority religion out of public life and the lives of individuals who don't adhere to it. They may support things like drug legalisation and police disarmament and oppose the death penalty, too. These are all instances where liberals are against greater state involvement.

    As for every sexual act starting with a paper contract, aren't conservatives the ones who want to preserve traditional values and encourage abstinence until marriage (which is a paper contract)? Liberals are more likely not to mind sexual promiscuity or certain sexual habits.


    It bugs me so much when people call Marxism utopian. Utopian socialism was actually a thing during the 19th century, proposed by the likes of Owen and Fourier. And what did Marx, Engels and the First International think of utopian socialism? They slated it, they polemicised against it, they strove to create a new form of socialism which would not be based on wishy-washy abstractions and morals, but on a concrete analysis of social development throughout history and how material conditions could be used to build a society which would liberate the proletariat and thus the whole of humanity. In other words, a scientific socialism.

    Accordingly, when Marxists analyse historical events, we see things in terms of the existent social forces involved. In the Soviet Union, and every other country which ostensibly attempted socialism, "state worship" emerged after the proletarian state degenerated due to the set of conditions in which it was placed, and the power-hungry were drawn to this new degenerate state like moths to a flame. It was far from an inevitability, and is actually antithetical to Marxism and to the interests of the working class.

    I haven't read either of those people *gulp* so I can't really comment, but yeah, I think anarchists are well-intentioned. I flirted with anarchism for a little while and had a pretty long email exchange with my country's section of the IWA, but decided that anarchism was implausible.

    I'm not quite sure how any consistent anarchism can be peaceful, though.



    Yes, using a "revolution vs. reaction" method does depend on the time period, though I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We know that different things were revolutionary/reactionary at different time periods. Capitalism was revolutionary in the 18th century; feudalism was revolutionary in the 11th.

    See, I think some ideologies are objectively revolutionary and some objectively reactionary at a certain point in time, which is why I think this is the best way to categorise political ideologies and give some objectivity to our categorisation so that we don't have to worry about everyone's different opinions. There is a definite historical trend in terms of the evolution of productive forces and the corresponding evolution of modes of production, social institutions, class struggle and so on. Ideologies which favour adapting to the future are leftist, and ideologies which favour returning to some sort of golden age in the past are rightist.
     
  6. KAMALAYKA

    KAMALAYKA Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,690
    Likes Received:
    1,004
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm a bible-based atheist.
     
  7. rockyreagan

    rockyreagan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,482
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    48
    My apologies for the short response. I will post further to your points as a whole when I have more time, but this I believe is what will divide our views more then any other. I am not a historicist when it comes to my understanding of how the world works, political philosophy included. The "future" or "past" means little to my understanding of philosophy.

    I will able to respond in much more detail later, but I figured I'd throw that out their quickly with my current limited time.
     
  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    23,231
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I answered Progressive......... because my political views are morphing and changing greatly as I get older and read more!


    http://www.politicalforum.com/gay-l...rs-understand-nde-comments-gay-community.html
    Sincere apologies for taking 5 years to understand NDE comments on Gay Community!
    I personally am ashamed of myself for being a Christian who could not understand this message for about five years!!!!!
     
  9. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    Messages:
    9,402
    Likes Received:
    1,345
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm an old-school Conservative.

    Why would I support taking a hook and loop and rip apart an unborn human just because I could?

    Why would I support liberal Democrats who took once great cities like Detroit and Los Angeles and turn them into 3rd World dumps?

    Why would I support the broken and corrupt ideology of communism/socialism/or progressives if I supported individual rights and individual accountability?
     
    Gatewood likes this.
  10. Phoebe Bump

    Phoebe Bump New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    26,347
    Likes Received:
    172
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The more I learned about capitalism and conservatism being nothing more than licenses to steal, the more liberal I became.
     
  11. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    2,341
    Likes Received:
    1,741
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Independent. I base my opinions on the merit/value of each individual subject and not on some party line. Party lines are for sheeple.

    - - - Updated - - -

    :confusion: I'd love to see how you explain this one.
     
  12. CriminyRiver

    CriminyRiver New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I usually answer liberal, but I actually believe based on what I know of myself that I am a progressive. Essentially, I get cranky when American tries to regress.

    - - - Updated - - -

    When it comes to abortion, it doesn't matter how much you dramatize it? You still don't get to decide what some nameless, faceless woman is going to do with her reproductive choices.
     
  13. legojenn

    legojenn New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,054
    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Generally, I find the distinctions to be too rigid and not conducive to international comparisons. While the general political culture in countries like the US, Canada and Ireland might sit on a particular point on the spectrum, the dominant parties don't deviate that much. For all the bluster in US politics, both parties are essentially conservative, where the cleavage is urban v. rural and policy platforms aim to appease those who they wish to mobilise. Republicans tend to target the religious and rural, where the Democrats target urban & suburban secular voters. Canada is similar. After the Liberals dropped their classical liberal ideology in the 1890s, they became the Catholic & French party and the Conservatives/Progressive Conservatives were the English Protestant party. They later morphed into regionalised parties like in the US. We 'supposably' have a leftist party with the NDP, but they have traded ideology for seats in the House of Commons. Irish politics are similar with a regional split with Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, where FG is more of an urban organisation, and FF more rural. As Ireland urbanised, Fianna Fáil lost their dominance. Both parties are right wing, though FF has embraced populism and FG allied with Labour. Though there was a left-right split in UK politics, I don't see much difference in the last five UK governments. If you describe policies of Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, or Cameron, they would all seem Conservative.

    Even though the political spectrum in in the world is wide, it is narrow in any particular country. These labels just magnify differences and make meaningless distinctions.
     
  14. ArmySoldier

    ArmySoldier Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2014
    Messages:
    30,902
    Likes Received:
    11,265
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Really?

    I had no idea those inner city Obama loving liberals were so educated. And I watched "Straight outta Compton" like 3 times!
     
    Gatewood and Ritter like this.
  15. greatdanechick

    greatdanechick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,120
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    48
    That was kind of racist. Not all Obama lovers are black, and not all of his black supporters are uneducated.
     
  16. Sharpie

    Sharpie Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Messages:
    4,735
    Likes Received:
    2,441
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Your post tells my story as well... Republicans on my dad's side who were solid, conservative and moral along with being successful. Mom's side has a mixed tradition of transcendentalism/Unitarianism and plain old Southern Democrats from a slave-owning past that I find remains in today's progressives under the guise of superiority. I was very concerned with social issues growing up, and always considered myself a Democrat. I used to be passionate - voted for Carter with my whole heart and soul. Then felt the consequences of heart without brains. I began to lean towards the Republicans, but did not like the run-away greed unleashed in the 80's. In my opinion, both parties have strayed far from their original focus. I remain a left-out middle class person who loves the American tradition and our constitutional heritage; and resents both parties for ruining it for us.
     
    Gatewood likes this.
  17. ArmySoldier

    ArmySoldier Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2014
    Messages:
    30,902
    Likes Received:
    11,265
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Where did I once mention a race? Only extremists pull the race card when nothing is left. Is Eminem black to you?
     
  18. Sharpie

    Sharpie Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2015
    Messages:
    4,735
    Likes Received:
    2,441
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I dislike labels... I like the freedom to consider each issue in the relevant time frame. When the pendulum swings too far left, I pull to the right. When it swings too far right, I pull to the left. I'm conservative when it comes to fiscal matters and resources. I'm a tree hugger who saves scrap paper for grocery lists (I have a stack of old fax cover sheets turned into tablets that are 15 years old!) but I'm not part of the Global warming crowd. I have some of those in my family and it's amazing the resources they burn through and the food they toss out while complaining about recycling and air quality!). I hate waste. I think we should all stock pile money, live in the same old house, and wear the same old clothes - not to take the fun out of life, though. On social issues I tend to be more liberal until recently when I think there has been some over-reaching. I am libertarian when laws become invasive. Like seat belt laws. If someone is too stupid to use their seat belts - that's Darwinism for ya! So ..... I guess I'm someone who likes my own opinion and does not like to be ruled by a party or ideology, Centrist maybe?
     
  19. Zorroaster

    Zorroaster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    1,183
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Rational is a mode of thought, not a set of political beliefs. You can start with wildly divergent assumptions and rationally proceed to wildly divergent conclusions.
     
  20. tsuke

    tsuke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2015
    Messages:
    6,087
    Likes Received:
    227
    Trophy Points:
    63
    >: ( i demand an option for nationalist conservative
     
  21. RPA1

    RPA1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2009
    Messages:
    22,807
    Likes Received:
    1,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The poll shows the liberals don't want to be identified as such.
     
  22. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    23,231
    Likes Received:
    1,441
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am thinking that The Donald will probably be the catalyst for many positive changes in the USA economy................ The Donald doesn't fit any perfect mold if being either conservative or liberal....... He is more into doing things that will actually work and get the job done!

    http://www.politicalforum.com/polit...donald-trump-can-great-president-because.html


    Donald Trump can be a GREAT President because.......



    … of his deep level of empathy with the greatest forces that are keeping the average American down!

    I saw two documentaries about The Donald yesterday evening. When I saw the part about how he purchased the Taj Mahal through financing arranged by about twenty different banks. When I heard that he had agreed to pay them a high rate of interest. I knew that The Donald had been guided by G-d to have a deep empathy for the situation faced by President Abraham Lincoln.

    http://www.michaeljournal.org/lincolnkennedy.htm

    Melvin Sickler:

    ................


    The Fed.......... is set up in such a way that it is extremely useful in causing significant boom and bust cycles..... which tend to break unions. To a segment of the population strong unions are one of the greatest evils in America and the whole world.

    ....................
    For the record........ wars kind of scary for investors.

    During a time of war...… you take your most productive workers out of producing goods or services..... and pay them to shoot muskets and cannons at each other..... So you are printing money........ at the same time that less stuff is produced......… which causes inflation.

    During a time of 23 percent inflation........ how much of a real return on your investment have you made if you are earning 25% interest?????
     
  23. greatdanechick

    greatdanechick Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,120
    Likes Received:
    39
    Trophy Points:
    48
    [MENTION=59634]DennisTate[/MENTION] empathy is not a word I would use to describe Donald Trump. In fact I think that is exactly what he lacks.
     
  24. GeddonM3

    GeddonM3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    20,174
    Likes Received:
    307
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Not liberal because I do not believe in allowing illegal immigration, PC hypocrisy, pretending everything that doesn't agree with you is racist or deserves to be silenced, attacking law abiding citizens with more gun laws and ignoring the criminals, flooding our country with more muslims who will not assimilate, forcing people to adopt their views via suing them or closing their business ,and I do not feel I am entitled to someone elses money or property.

    Not a conservative because I am pro choice for the most part, don't have a problem with gay marriage, dont believe in disregarding voters because they don't agree with me, don't believe any religion has the right to run this country and don't believe in banning certain religions.
     
  25. PatrickT

    PatrickT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    16,573
    Likes Received:
    396
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I would describe myself as a fiscal conservative. As such, I will never vote for a liberal like Sen. Sanders, Sen. Clinton, or Mr. Trump.
     

Share This Page