What Existed Before the Big Bang

Discussion in 'Science' started by Pixie, Jan 18, 2022.

  1. Overitall

    Overitall Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2021
    Messages:
    12,210
    Likes Received:
    11,567
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    We know that a watch (consisting of elements found in the Universe) didn't spontaneously appear in its completed form. There was a watchmaker who took the elements in the Universe and produced the watch. Order doesn't spontaneously come out of disorder. That would amount to a tornado ripping through a junkyard producing a Cadillac.
     
  2. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    In science you can't do squat unless there is way to test for it in the real world. You don't have that.

    Your watchmaker argument was ripped apart over a hundred years ago...
     
  3. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,214
    Likes Received:
    16,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Again, it is nowhere near that simplistic.

    We know that there was a singularity from which our universe came.

    But, we do not know what caused that singularity.

    There is NO EVIDENCE that the singularity could not be the result of natural processes which we simply can't observe directly given today's technology and the difficulties presented by space-time.

    But, theoretical physicists are working to test a number of possible mechanisms that could lead to such a beginning of our universe as we understand it.

    You don't have an "Occam's Razor" argument. Occam's Razor is a general argument that the simpler of two theories is more likely to be the correct one.

    But, you aren't presenting an actual theory. "God did it" is NOT a theory. "God did it" is the foundational argument of many different religions, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with science.

    If it were legitimate to consider "god did it" to be a theory applicable by Occam's Razor, then "god did it" would be the answer to EVERY QUESTION EVER POSED.

    You can't get more simple than "god did it".

    All you are doing with that is to deny all progress ever made by science.

    "God did it" is a more simple explanation than gravity, because god could certainly move objects in a way we see as following the rules of gravity. And, the ACTUAL theory of gravity is WAY more complicated than "God did it".

    So, you could claim that Occam's Razor supports God moving objects, NOT the theory of gravitation.
     
  4. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2021
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    4,280
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How does evolution explain creation of the universe with it's natural laws, or creation of life?
     
  5. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2021
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    4,280
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Nope, just the truth. When you get around to explaining creation through scientific study let us know.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,214
    Likes Received:
    16,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The way we know that is by reading history and watching watches, Cadillacs, etc. being designed and built.

    There is nothing similar to that in the early seconds of our universe, or the time after that.

    Order doesn't spontaneously come out of disorder. Order requires energy. But, then you make a major mistake in applying that.

    You don't have evidence that there isn't enough energy to cause what has transpired.

    Energy is not spread across the universe in a smooth way.
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,214
    Likes Received:
    16,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Evolution does not address those questions.

    The question of the origin of life concerns abiogenesis, not evolution.

    The emergence of our natural laws is studied as part of physics.

    Please remember that not having an answer does NOT support the idea that "God did it".

    There are many questions for which modern humans do not have an answer right now.
     
  8. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That would be assuming your conclusion.

    What you are trying to do died over a century ago...
     
  9. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2021
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    4,280
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How's that study of abiogenesis going for you?
     
  10. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2021
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    4,280
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Nope, it's still alive and will outlive your theories. You just haven't learned enough to admit it yet.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,214
    Likes Received:
    16,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Somehow, you think that humans have to have the answer to ALL questions.

    I don't believe humans are that knowledgeable. I think humans have incomplete knowledge, and that we work to find solutions to those questions we don't understand, when we have the tools to do so.

    So for me, manufacturing an answer, such as "god did it" is absolutely meaningless.

    Why would anyone consider that to be a useful direction to take?
     
  12. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, if a theory fails we don't assume the explanation is magic. That is how children look at the world. And we have a pretty good handle on creation.

    When religious nonsense can definitively solve one real problem, let me know. In over 2000 years it hasn't yet. Science solves real problems every day,
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2022
  13. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2021
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    4,280
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Faith.
     
  14. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Here is how time works

     
  15. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Faith tells me that monkeys can fly out of your butt. So what.

    Faith is why they burned innocent people for witchcraft and tortured non believers.

    Faith is why a bunch of nuts put on black tennis shoes and drank poison so they could join the mother ship.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2022
  16. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2021
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    4,280
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Not magic, an intelligence responsible for creation. It's also the way an increasing number of scientists look at the world.
     
  17. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    All of the arguments for the existence of a deity were ripped to shreds over a century ago. That's not going to change.

    Which leaves you with science, and for the foreseeable future, that just ain't gonna happen.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2022
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    60,214
    Likes Received:
    16,520
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, you are entirely missing the point here. I agree that faith is the only way to accept your god. After all, the Bible states that.

    The point HERE is that believing that god does those things for which we don't have some other answer is just totally unproductive.

    When you say "god did" something, it provides NO information concerning how our universe works as a whole.

    When science finds a mechanism for how something works, that becomes useful information in answering other related questions.

    For example, science figured out evolution. That turns out to be one of the foundations of all modern biology, as it is such a powerful tool in extending our knowledge.

    If we all decided that "god did it", we wouldn't have that. The "god did it" answer just doesn't provide any addition to our understanding.
     
  19. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I love that show.

    Philosophy and humor in a tv series? I did not think it possible. I've seen it twice, wish I could watch it again.
     
    HereWeGoAgain likes this.
  20. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2021
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    4,280
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yeah, you keep hold of that thought.
     
  21. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's not my thought, that's the scientific and academic world.

    However, since you are in way over your head...
     
  22. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2021
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    4,280
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I think maybe you don't understand my view, and that's probably my fault. I believe in evolution. I believe that is part of God's creation, a universe with discoverable laws of nature. I just don't believe the creation of life can be explained that way.. It takes already living, self-replicating cells to even begin evolution. Where did they come from?
     
  23. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2021
    Messages:
    6,361
    Likes Received:
    4,280
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I think you're too limited in your understanding of the world to even be able to make that statement.
     
  24. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My too!!! It is one of my all-time favorites by far. And I'm madly in love with Kristen Bell. Have you heard her sing?

    I'm watching it for about the 4th time. LOL!!!!
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2022
  25. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,001
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I wasn't going to respond, but that had me laughing, so thanks for that.

    A century ago, religious academics had to change the way they wrote. The arguments were gone, so they had to start saying things like "Leap of Faith".

    You see, the academic world has rules, and they couldn't pretend what happened didn't just happen. You know, like you just did.
     
    WillReadmore likes this.

Share This Page