Why do NeoAtheists deny the practice of atheism is a religion?<<MOD WARNING>>

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kokomojojo, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    A Moderator Warning has been issued for this thread on 6/3/19 at 2:36 PDT. This thread has had way too much baiting, insults, and flamebaiting. If one makes a post which insults, flamebaits, or baits another poster, the person making that post may receive an banning from the thread and could receive a warning with points as if the customary initial warning was issued.

    Atheism is the belief that there is no god.

    Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

    “Atheism is the position that affirms the non-existence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief.”Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, New York, 1998."

    [​IMG]

    Some atheists say: “Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour”

    It creates a false dichotomy between science (which they claim must be naturalistic and secular) and religion.

    Atheism will be defined in the contemporary western sense: not just the lack of belief in a god, but the assertion about the non-existence of any gods, spirits, or divine or supernatural beings.

    Atheists in this sense are metaphysical naturalists, and as will be shown, they DO follow a religion.

    Atheism creates a false dichotomy between science (which they claim must be naturalistic and secular) and religion.

    That said in combination with other points made in the article, atheism most certainly IS a religion.

    Why is it so painful for NeoAtheists to admit the truth?


    MORE
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2019
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  2. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Atheism is a religion, because it can only believe not prove their main point.

    They have neither the language, the symbols, or the logic to prove it.
     
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  3. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

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    Me "asserting" any supernatural/magical thing you can think up without any proof is only in your deluded mind is not a religion unless you define religion out of existence.
     
  4. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    What is a Neo-Atheist and I guess I am one.
     
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  5. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    Might I recommend you avoid critiquing language use by others?
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  6. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    edna, do you believe in God?

    Tecoyah.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  7. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Asserting a belief, is not the same as asserting a belief in religion. There are so many assertions of belief. They include a belief that smoking causing cancer, that dogs are friendlier than cats, that liberalism is better than conservativism, that rhubarb is a terrible fruit for a pie. Those are not to be mistaken as religious beliefs. I do not believe in God or an afterlife because I have not seen any convincing evidence in either. I recognize that the possibility exists, but that possibility isn't going to turn into a probability without something more impressive than testimonials.
     
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  8. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    But which creates which?
    Are beliefs the framework of religion or religion the framework of beliefs?
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  9. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Like I said above, all you have is belief, not the tools to disprove God. You sound more an agnostic.
     
  10. hudson1955

    hudson1955 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would thnk the word along means not believing in God, Religion.
    So it cannot be a religion by definition IMO. At best it is a a social group. Made up of those who think alike, not believing in religion or Jesus or God or any creator.
     
  11. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Belief is faith, and faith is religion.
     
  12. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

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    I do not believe in any supernatural/magical "thing" that you can imagine without proof. Wouldn't that be foolish?
     
  13. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Nope, and thanks for your answer.
     
  14. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    I do not know if God exists or not. I do not know if such a thing is knowable. That makes me agnostic. I do not believe in God. I do not believe in the existence of a deity. That makes me an atheist. Our tools to disprove or prove God are utterly incapable of doing the job, but I don't see it as my job to prove anything does not exist in order to justify my skepticism. Someone needs to provide a lot of evidence, if my disbelief is to dissipate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  15. Concord

    Concord Well-Known Member

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    Nope. Looks like you're conflating "atheism" with "atheists I've talked to."

    Oopsies. I don't recognize such a "dichotomy," and I'm the most atheist atheist you'll ever find.
     
  16. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Banned

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    Personal rejection means nothing.

    The accepted terms mean everything.

    Part of the problem is the cult of scientism.
     
  17. Concord

    Concord Well-Known Member

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    Wait, are we talking about atheism or "scientism?"

    Personal rejection DOES mean something, since my beliefs as an atheist are necessarily bounded by "atheism" as a concept.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  18. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

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    Dear @Kokomojojo
    It depends on each person if they just have personal atheist/nontheist/antitheist beliefs
    (huge difference between these three!) or if they institutionalize these beliefs as a collective religion.

    I know people who have Constitutional beliefs, but don't make it into a religion
    as other people do. Same with Muslim beliefs that other people institutionalize to make an Islamic Political religion
    out of it. Those Islamists are not the same as Muslims, and Jihadists are even more extreme in their political religion.

    To decipher and distinguish between the different levels,
    first I would distinguish between
    * nontheists who simply express beliefs or views in SECULAR terms
    without personifying the concepts. ie referring to the Universe instead of Creation,
    or universal Justice and Peace for all Humanity without personifying that as Jesus or the Holy Spirit,
    or believing in Greater Good for humanity universally or collective universal Truth/natural laws
    without referring to a personified God or deified creator.
    * atheists who either don't believe in God or believe there is NOT a God
    (this can be a personal belief or it can be part of a collective religion)
    * antitheists who proactively believe in opposing theists and theism as negative
    and therefore believe this is morally necessary to defend truth and justice from oppression blamed on such religion

    Any of these can be personal beliefs, or can be connected
    to a collective identity. Not everyone is the same.
    so some object because they really DO NOT ascribe to a collective movement or mentality.
    Others might object because they are in denial.

    Either way, what I find is the critical factor is whether people
    can FORGIVE each other for differences or conflicts between beliefs.

    If people FORGIVE and agree to work together regardless of these conflicts,
    then it doesn't matter as much who is nontheistic and who is theistic.

    The problems are harder to resolve when people or groups
    REFUSE to forgive each other and are biased toward attacking and negating/excluding other beliefs.

    That causes problems to go in circles, regardless of the beliefs of the people caught in that.
    Some of the denial is from ill will and unforgiveness.
    But it tends to be mutual on both sides, conflicts are rarely just onesided.
     
  19. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    so then you think they are in denial?
     
  20. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Usually. Like many labels, it is applied (sometimes arguably misapplied) to different people for different reasons. To say anything really meaningful about any given example requires more context than any single term.

    How about “Calling atheism a religion is like calling theism a religion”?

    Why? If you want to discuss the legitimacy of that specific belief, why not just say so. What is the benefit for suing a much more widely used and controversial term in the context of that discussion.

    You’ve not defined “neoatheist” here. Is it meant to mean something different to the specific definition of “atheist” you gave above?

    Can you admit the truths that there are people who simple lack a belief in any god or gods, that those people are often labelled as “atheists” (regardless of whether you think that label is accurate or not) and that this belief alone is not a religion?
     
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  21. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Is that the definition you want to stick with in its entirety? Here's another bit of that same definition. "Since many different gods have been objects of belief, one might be an atheist with respect to one god while believing in the existence of some other god".
    So I guess the Pope is an atheist to you.

    It seems to me I could make up a god concept which you specifically believe does not exist (like, an omnipresent and opaque god, i.e. a god which you could not help but see). I would assume that you believe such a god does not exist (for if it did, you would have been able to see it), and thus by your definition, you are an atheist.

    "Will be"? By whom and with what justification? Who decides what the contemporary western sense is?
    False dichotomy? "A false dilemma [Redirected from False dichotomy] is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option" (source). Are you suggesting the truth lies outside of both science and religion?
    My problem with your logic is, as it has been, that you seem to think that finding many similarities is enough to claim that one is a subset of the other. If that was a good logic, every mammal would be a dog.
     
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  22. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    yes those people are called agnostics, atheists hijacked agnostics and failed to even get that right because agnostics lack belief as well as disbelief, while atheist makes a singular positive assertion of disbelief:

    Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

    “Atheism is the position that affirms the non-existence of God. It proposes positive disbelief rather than mere suspension of belief.”Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, New York, 1998."
     
  23. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Its loonacy to hold that atheist is no god and some god at the same time....sigh but they go where no intellectual is capable of going

    you arent seriously going to quote them are you?
     
  24. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    My problem is that you and the board atheists cant get past

    the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.


    fail to read the next line:

    a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

    the line that just happens to identify the atheist practices as a religion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
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  25. Frank

    Frank Well-Known Member Donor

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    It is my experience that ANYONE who uses "atheist" as part of a self-descriptor...either "believes" there are no gods...or "believes" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.

    BOTTOM LINE: Using "atheist" as a descriptor or part of a descriptor...almost always seems to be an acknowledgement of a "belief" (which, of course, is nothing but a blind guess about the REALITY.)

    I doubt that means "atheism" is a religion...but it does mean it is almost always "belief." Very, very few atheists are actually non-believers, as they assert.

    The true non-believers...are agnostics.
     
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