Why Europe Is Irrational About Israel

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Taxcutter, Oct 15, 2014.

  1. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Like a victim? Seems the victim has been REPEATEDLY kicking the perps arse. funny looking victims.

    Yes Zionist treatment of Palestinians since the 20's. Is that before or after the arab riots the Mufti ordered?

    Meanwhile Abraham has been dead for longer and much of the jewish bible is rather older than the temple as well. I'm not sure you actually have a point here.
     
  2. CircleBird

    CircleBird Banned

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    Makes you wonder why the western response to the Holocaust was to establish a semitic state in an area surrounded by antisemitic people.

    Oh wait... .. they weren't antisemitic until the had foreign powers annex their territory and import European immigrants to an area that was demographically arab.
     
  3. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the eloquence and depth I have come to expect from you.
     
  4. RiseAgainst

    RiseAgainst Banned

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    Actually you are quite wrong. Educate yourself on Islam. Hatred and murder of jews and christians is deeply imbedded in the filthy "religion".
     
  5. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    has to do with the FACT that when it came to the jews it didn't matter what nationality they were. Research how many jewish transports were turned away by the" civilized"
    world as they attempted to escape Germany prior to ww2.

    Israel is a place where ANY jew can flee to and not be turned away. Israel is the last redoubt of NEVER AGAIN.

    Its pretty straightforward actually.
     
  6. Phoebe Bump

    Phoebe Bump New Member

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    It's pretty simple, really. No reason to wax poetic. You expect Muslims to live with the same things that would turn you or me into killers.
     
  7. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wrong on lots of counts, Jews in Germany fared a lot better than Polish or Hungarian Jews, about 30% of German Jews died compared to 90% of Polish and 60% of Hungarian IIRC. With Latvia and Lithuania also suffering more than pre war German Jews. The fact is many did escape but one of the biggest restrictions to rescuing the Jews were the actions of the Zionists in insisting that escaping Jews should go to Palestine. Many more could of and would of been saved if the Zionists had concentrated on saving them rather than establishing Israel.
    And not every Jew is welcome in Israel any who have converted to another religion are not welcome, excluding many Messianic Jews.It does not require a lot of working out to see that a Muslim who's family can trace their ancestry and ethnicity all the way back 2000 years to a Jewish heritage who converted somewhere along the way would not be welcome.
    Herzl in The Jewish State suggests Argentina as well as Palestine as a homeland for the Jews.
    So its far from straightforward!
     
  8. AKRunner88

    AKRunner88 New Member

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    Yea, lucky them. They don't have neighbors on all sides wishing for their death.
     
  9. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I got it wrong? Almost 90% of german jews left in Germany in 1939 were exterminated such as most of my fathers paternal family members.
    I don't know where you get your "information" but to suggest that German Jews had it better than others is pure garbage.

    Prior to the war some 300,000 german jews got outta dodge.Your assertion that jews were inhibited from escaping by Zionists insisting they go to Palestine is nothing more than a blatant and idiotic attempt to re-write history. As to your accusation that many more could have been saved, once again you show a remarkably erroneous knowledge of history.



    EVERY jew is welcome to emigrate to Israel. They may not get a rousing welcome from all of its citizens, but that is a universal situation.

    A muslim is not a jew, PERIOD. That doesn't require any brains what so ever.

    There were lots of suggestions by Zionists and others as to where to establish a homeland. Herzl died some 14 years before the balfour declaration was signed so he held out little hope that the jews first choice of Palestine could be realized.

    And yes its very straight forward. it only becomes convoluted when certain groups attempt to re-write history. the kind of re-write you obviously have accepted as true.
     
  10. TRFjr

    TRFjr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    proves how small minded you are thinking those airstrikes was just over one murder and ignore the hundreds of rockets fired at them
    any other nation would have declared war, invaded, and occupied any other nation that constantly fired rockets at them
     
  11. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, I don't. But I do expect Palestinians to figure out after generations that their approach has yielded miniscule returns on their investment of blood, hate and other people's treasure.

    I respect an occupied people's right to resist a belligerent military occupation. But since they can't defeat Israel militarily to gain their independence, their strategy of being human punching bags and generational victims isn't going to resolve the issues. Their intransigence on the issues is an historic fact. Perhaps you can point to the losers in any war (let alone in multiple wars) that get to dictate terms for peace. One thing is a certain as the sun rising, is, as Eban said, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

    you think by waving some magic wand, or passing some feel good non-binding resolution is instantly going to build trust? instantly turn Islamists bent of destruction into peaceniks? wash away generations of hatred and fear? eliminate security concerns? Is it going to solve the serous problem the "nation" of Palestine will have with two separate provinces not physically linked and wholly dependent on Israel?

    There is no black and white. Israel has been as insincere as the Palestinians at times. There is a large % of Israelis (likud and the orthodox parties) who believe that Israel should span from river to sea and the arabs should get out of the WB. This conflict consists only of shades of gray with right and wrong on both sides.
    .
     
  12. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes you got it wrong, and now you are trying to defend it by changing the parameters of the discussion! Prior to WW2 the estimated figure of German Jews was 560,000, estimated figures for those that were killed were between 150,000-200,000, even at the highest figure of 200,000 deaths that is 35%. At least 300,000 escaped Germany prior to WW2 as you concede, so where do all these transport ships turned away come from?
    The terrible truth is that compared to other Jewish populations the German Jews faired better(although I can see how mad it is to be able to write the death of 200,000 as better, I am no Holocaust denier.)
    I have bolded where you wrote PRIOR to WW2

    Try reading, The Abandoment of the Jews by David S. Wyman in which, as well as criticising the US and British authorities he is highly critical of the mainstream Jewish and Zionist organisations. Have a look at the story of the Bergson Group, there is a particularly good documentary that includes an interview with Peter Bergson (Hille lKook) in which he criticises mainstream Zionism for not helping the European Jews enough. Yet again I would point a Zionist in the direction of the Petria disaster a ship sunk by the Haguna. ( not one Zionist on this forum has ever acknowledged this historical fact) I grant you that there is an awful lot of revisionist history going on. Much of it by Zionists attempting to cover up the extent of the dubious history of Zionism and much of it by the lunatic right with Holocaust denial. But in the middle you will find most mainstream historians agree that more could of been done to save the Jews of Europe and the Zionists had their part to play in it.

    So you know except that there were many alternatives discussed by the Zionists as to where a Jewish State should be located, Argentina, Uganda and Mauritius being just three of them. All were seriously considered by the Zionists, and unless I am mistaken, none are the location of the bible or any Jewish Temple!

    I have asked several times on this forum What is a Jew? and never got an answer. Are they a Race,Ethnic Group or Religion? The answer seams to be a bit of all three, but none of the above if they have converted to another religion. So an atheist can be a Jew on grounds of ethnicity, matriarchal blood line etc, but should he discover Christianity he is no longer a Jew! And Messianic Jews who believe they are Jews are not Jews according to the Law of Return!

    The History of the Jews is confusing even to dedicated historians and Zionism is anything but simple or obvious, I seriously try to fathom out the truth which as always seems to be in the middle. I would like to know who you think is a Jew?
     
  13. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    You're quoting a right-wing Jew from a conservative blog and that's supposed to be convincing?
     
  14. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    Israel already invaded and is currently occupying territory which is not theirs to occupy. Or didn't you get the memo? Could that possibly be a reason for Palestinian resistance?
     
  15. free man

    free man Well-Known Member

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    The birth of the Hebrew nation was Israel. Spme 3500 years ago.
    Read the bible. even as secular person, if you remove all the godly stuff, you can read the history accounts of the Jews.
    Israel is the only place of earth you hav a Jewish country. While there are many Christian countries (even some of the most secular) and Muslim countries (none of them secular).
    Israel is the only place Hebrew is the spoken laguage. Hebrew has been spoken since the birth of recorded langauges.
    Hebrew was the first alphabetical written language. Even the latin letters originated from Hebrew.
    Jerusalem had been the place every Jew prays for.
    A prominant example is the owth every Jews say when he maries:
     
  16. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    Taxcutter says:
    People post stuff from left wingers and Islamic stooges all the time.

    What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
     
  17. Margot2

    Margot2 Banned

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    Is this a competition for victim status or a search for facts and justice?
     
  18. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    Taxcutter says:
    Gotta fight fire with fire sometimes.
     
  19. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If the immigrants had to purchase property and work their way through life voluntarily, it would be a victimless crime, except for those who can not and do not want to compete in the labor market - they'd lose out. The problem is, this is not at all what immigration is like in most Western countries. They steal from their fellow countrymen to subsidize immigration - either legal or illegal immigration.

    The boundary markers of your property is your border. In that regard I'm for complete border patrol. Of course, while public land exists there's a problem - but I think we should fix that by establishing a firm institution of property rights where those rights aren't violated by the state at will, not by telling people who they can and cannot let on their property/sell it to.

    [hr][/hr]

    Any case of coercive immigration is either a) trespass, or b) caused by government intervention and violation of property rights.
     
  20. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    Something a little less partisan, perhaps?
     
  21. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    Taxcutter says:
    What?

    HuffPo or NYT?
     
  22. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Our civilized wars, as Israel is expected to indulge in, when defending themselves is the problem. The way these things used to work is that Israel would have moved in to Gaza, and killed out all of the rats. The rats being Hamas. They would eradicate the problem. Instead, they end up killing non combatants, while the leaders and soldier of hamas live to launch missiles another day.

    If the Allies had used what Israel is expected to use, against Hitlers Germany, Hitler would never have killed himself. And the Nazis would be alive today.

    Yet if Israel fought hamas the way wars that are won are fought, Europe would be in hysterics. Reality is much stranger than fiction.

    Perhaps one day the Europe will be in the state of economic collapse, as will America, and they will be unable to control Israel, limit them in their defense, and Israel will solve their problems when it comes to the middle east. For this sort of solution is the only thing that muslims understand, and it is the only thing that will ever work.

    Then there will be a jewel in the middle east, a democracy and not a theocracy, which is a good thing for those that believe democracies are better than theocracies with the priests running the show.
     
  23. snakestretcher

    snakestretcher Banned

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    No. Do you not understand what "less partisan"/impartial/unbiased/neutral means?
     
  24. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Maurititius is not Jewish. Israel is because of History and Archeology!
     
  25. free man

    free man Well-Known Member

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    Is it also the reason all the Arab fuctions fight each other ('resist' in your words) in Syria ?
    In Iraq ?
    In Yeman ?
    The Muslims in Sudan ?
    The Muslims in China ?
    The Muslims in Thailand ? yes, each year more thai people die from the Muslim 'resistence' there than in the Arab/Jew conflict in Israel ?
    Do you say the same about the occopation of Cyprus by the Muslims of Turkey ?
     

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