Why nobody wants to join the Army this year

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Nightmare515, Jul 13, 2022.

  1. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    • Why nobody wants to join the Army this year

    ~ The food is lousy. :bleh:"'
     
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  2. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I love the comments section, looks like we must be going to war since there's only white men in this commercial. "No time for diversity when it's wartime huh guys?" LOL.

    I am by no means an expert social analyst or anything but in my opinion the best way forward is to stop pandering to the progressives of Gen Z who 99% of which want no part of serving their country. Sure they may get a handful who see the Army "changing" and feel welcomed enough to join now but it's not many. And for every one of those they get they've pissed off 10 regular in shape teenage boys who refuse to join the Army because of it's push towards a more progressive culture and they want zero part of that. And like it or not the latter is who the Army actually needs. This is the military....not a Starbucks. I want teenage boys who radiate "toxic masculinity" who want to be alpha males when it comes time to fight.

    I have the exit surveys of Soldiers ETS'ing, I have the surveys conducted throughout the year as it's part of my job to submit surveys and get feedback on the overall climate and culture of the Army. This isn't me being anecdotal this is from the force itself. There are two main factors that are pissing Soldiers off and causing them to ETS. They can get a better job on the outside and they hate the progressive cultural shift in the Army. It's not just the old guard who is pissed about this as many would expect either, it's also the younger Soldiers who will do one term and quit. I can't even post half the comments from Soldiers written on these surveys as it would be a blatant rule violation of this forum. They don't like this stuff, stop pushing it on them.

    These recruiters are getting laughed out of every venue they go to while trying to convince kids to join the Army right now because these kids know what the Army is becoming and they don't want that type of "progress".
     
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  3. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    I would say more the "progressive culture nonsense" that we have to do.

    It was bad enough on Active Duty having to do the "DoD Mandated" diversity classes each month. Almost always just a rehash with slight changing of a class we had just two months prior. But there was something added, so we have to take the stupid hour and a half long Power Point class all over again, with three added slides with a new slogan.

    But it was even worse in the Reserves, where we had to catch up to a month of those freaking things in our one weekend a month. Many months for our drill we would do no actual "training" in our jobs at all, it was entirely spent in classrooms doing endless Power Point classes on almost anything from basically telling us to "not rape each other", "not beat up queers", "sex trafficking is bad", and "the KKK is bad".

    Now imagine having to do ten or more of those in two days, because no kidding that was often what our weekends were like. I had planned to wait to retire until I turned 60, but after COVID and we had to do the exact same things but online I simply had enough. Doing absolutely nothing job related, not even being activated to assist in the health crisis even though we were a medical unit. I would never say "cultural shift", so much as "cultural poop" that is forced upon us by civilians that think nothing of making us do such nonsense endlessly, and ultimately to the detriment of the ability of people to actually do their jobs.

    My last decade in I was a computer tech. But for most of that I never actually did anything with computers other than taking more stupid and pointless DoD classes. Because there was simply no time left over during drill to actually do my job. Even every couple of months having to take some stupid three hour long "driver safety" training, even though I had been driving since 1980 and had not had a moving violation since 1993. Or having to take some stupid class in how to balance a checkbook, something that nobody even does anymore as nobody actually uses paper checks. But somewhere high up in the DoD somebody decided that everybody in uniform has to do so because Private Schmuckatelli got to his first unit he bought a Mustang and married a stripper. And now can't afford to get a haircut because obviously the military does not spend enough time teaching those in uniform how to set a budget.

    And yes, I first entered the service during Reagan's first term in office. I have seen the shifts and changes not only in the military but the civilian population also. But much worse is the largely forced "brainwashing" that we have to sit through almost endlessly, and telling us the exact same things over and over ad nauseum.

    To give an idea, here is one that almost all of us knew verbatim about 10 years ago when it came out.



    And that is just part 1 of a 2 part video that we would see about every other month. And it was like it for PTSD, suicide prevention, depression, alcohol, drugs, and almost anything else one can think of. There was little that kicked off my own PTSD and depression like having to sit through over freaking eight hours of such nonsense in a 2 day period.
     
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  4. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well if you are seeing the exit surveys, you probably have a better handle on the problem then almost anyone. I'm sure the data gets pushed up, but I imagine it get stopped at some point by someone who doesn't want to present data that makes him (or her/zir ect...) not look like a team player.

    Saw this on twitter this morning.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2023
  5. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    An opinion article about the recruiting crisis.

    The US Army discovers woke doesn’t win wars — but is it too late?

    Are the powers that be planning a war?

    The US Army last week “released a recruitment ad that critics argue is a sure sign the military is gearing up for war,” Townhall’s Leah Barkoukis reports. “There are no signs of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the 30-second spot, which features white males jumping out of a plane.”

    After several years of stressing wokeness and diversity — and telling troops, “If you’re a white male, you are part of the problem” — the Army is suddenly seeking old-fashioned soldiers from traditional sources.

    That’s because, like it or not, if you’re looking for combat soldiers, you’re going to be recruiting heavily among white males — and, worse yet from the wokies’ standpoint, white males from the South and Midwest.

    Though the Army has become more diverse overall, historically it’s been white males who have disproportionately signed up for combat roles.
     
  6. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    Care to point out where the Army (or any branch of the military for that matter) has told white men that they are, "part of the problem"?
     
  7. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

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    its pretty obvious why the military has recruitment issues, the independent internet "news" channels.

    the youth cannot be brainwashed by ONE SINGLE NARRATIVE anymore, which was, brown and yellow ppl bad, white ppl good, :machinegun: lets go kill them savages.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2023
  8. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Are you asking the writer of that column?
     
  9. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Sure, direct examples have already been given in this very thread by current service members. I'll echo the same and share some more.

    The Pentagon has mandated that the Army conduct "readiness day" training once a month. This policy started with the Secretary of Defense appointed by Joe Biden about 3 years ago. What it means is that one day per month, usually scheduled during the first week of the month in our case, units will "stand down", conduct no military operations, and conduct classes/briefings on various social topics including racism, equity, LGBT acceptance, womens issues, SHARP, EO, etc.

    During the very first "readiness day" training event 3 years ago I remember sitting in the room getting a briefing on "racism" and how the Army has been historically primarily white men and how minorities feel about it. The briefer presented a few testimonies about how this effects minorities and how minorities feel in the current force. He then asked me, as the only black man in the room, if I could stand up and share any personal stories of "struggles" I've encountered throughout my career while serving in the Army and how I am currently treated in comparison to my white peers.

    I remained seated, laughed, and told the room: Every single person in this room calls me Sir, when I walk by you salute me, I am part of an elite profession in the Army where only around 1 or 2% of the entire force does what I do, and you're asking me how I'm treat compared to the white people in here? Seriously?

    Briefer argues back saying well Sir surely there have been some instances where you felt you weren't treated fairly, I've heard from other black Soldiers about how they feel they are treated here, are you implying that nobody actually experiences any racism or feelings of discrimination and those Soldiers are wrong?

    I stood up, stopped laughing, and said you know...you're right there is racism here. Up until 5 minutes ago I genuinely never even noticed that I was the only black officer in this unit, it never even crossed my mind because it was never something that mattered or was brought up by ANYBODY except for YOU. Soldiers in this room do you respect me less because I'm a black guy? "No Sir". Do you respect me more because I'm a black guy? "No Sir", do any of you white guys in here even give a **** that I'm a black guy? "No Sir". Crazy...seems to me that the only person in this room who gives a **** about my skin color is this guy up here telling me how both myself and you guys are supposed to feel about it. I refuse to participate in your racist lecture any longer as you try to sow division between our Soldiers and myself.

    I turned around and walked out. A whole bunch of "ooohh ****'s!" rang out from the Soldiers and the 1SG who had the unfortunate task of giving that bullshit brief just stood there wide eyed and slack jawed. I never participated in another "readiness day" again.

    So oh yes they ABSOLUTELY tell white men they are "part of the problem" in the Army and the Sec Def has FORCED the Army to give briefings like that to their Soldiers on a monthly basis. Unfortunately for most units they don't have an old grumpy black officer in their midst who will stand up and blow these stupid racist meetings up in person because I am absolutely sick of this racist progressive agenda creeping into my Army and telling my white Soldiers that they need to feel guilty about having the audacity to be white.

    And as far as those black Soldiers who reportedly said they felt experiences of "racism" or "discrimination". I know them both well, they aren't treated poorly because they are black, they are treated poorly because they are lazy and they suck.
     
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  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And this is exactly right.

    Now take it a step farther, and imagine how it is for a Reserve unit. We only drill two days a month. And at least one of those days (but more typically both days) is nothing but that. Because we have the exact same mandates for mandatory training that the Active Duty units have. And we had the same kinds of lectures 4 decades ago, but in the last decade it got to the point where it seemed that was all we were doing.

    And sadly, I have seen the issue you closed out with first hand. I myself decades ago caught two s**tbirds who broke into a building they were supposed to be guarding, then fell asleep. And after writing them up, they accused me of being racist against Blacks and Hispanics. Thankfully, my best friend from school was also a Marine, and I had just gotten married and my wife was from South America. Not an xth Generation hyphanated-American one, as in I could barely understand her when we first met her accent was so strong and her accent so bad. Thankfully the charges against me were dropped when even their own lawyer knew their claims were false.

    But sadly, there are always some that will fall back on that. I knew a Corporal that had the same charge laid on him. But the Private who made it had never met his wife, who was darker than he was. I have absolutely no tolerance for racism, and also no tolerance for fake cries of racism. 98% of the time it appears to be a cop-out for failings of the individual.
     
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  11. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I couldn't imagine how this is going for Guard and Reserve units. You only get two days per month to train and we've decided to take that time and WASTE IT with this utter nonsense. And yes I will emphasize WASTE your time because that it exactly what this garbage is, a WASTE of Soldiers time. Not only is it a waste of time it's detrimental to the force overall by doing nothing other than sowing division within the ranks.

    Just last night I attended a going away party for one of my Soldiers. An E-6 who I worked closely with fairly often over the past few years. Great guy, the best worker in his shop, hand picked by me twice on two different huge assignments when I was directed to go find the best NCO in that shop for the task. He's ETS'ing for one reason and one reason only. He hates the new progressive Army. Last night at some point he pulled me aside and said I'm going to miss you but I just can't do this anymore Sir, I can't stand the direction the Army is going and I want no part of it. The shop is still in good hands and they'll know what to do when you need them, but I have to go.

    That right there is what absolutely pisses me off about all of this. This guy is damn good at his job and a damn fine NCO, arguably the best in that shop and we pushed him out. And he is by no means the only one as I've said before. We are bleeding our actual talent like him and trying to replace him by catering to the woke progressive Gen Z kids with our recruitment. That is a terrible trade off and the powers at be would rather double down than admit that their policies over the last few years have been an absolute disaster. They know the actual answer as to why retention and recruitment are in dire straits right now. They have access to the same surveys I do and way more data than I am privy to. I know they are panicking for the simple fact that at least once per week now I get a random survey from big Army in my email inbox asking either about the culture of the force or if I plan on staying in why or why not and what the Army can do to better serve me.

    We all give them the same answers yet they don't care. We are dropping experienced Soldiers like flies and they don't care. We can't get damn near anybody to join anymore and they don't care. They are desperately trying to find any other excuse as to what is causing this bleeding instead of accepting and addressing the actual reason because that truth is unpopular with the part of society who mostly controls culture and the current Administration.

    So I'll spell it out plainly. We hate your woke bullshit. I despise it so much that I am personally suffering the consequences of this retention crisis and I'm still pushing people away. I NEED people, ALL of our departments in the unit are half staffed and all of us seniors are having to do double, triple, and even quadriple the work because none of us have trained subordinates to fill the roles at the lower levels anymore. The NCO's are in the same boat. It's burning all of us out but even with that whenever somebody stops by my office and says they are thinking about getting out and asking what I think I say the same thing to all of them lower enlisted, NCO, or Officer alike: "Run". And if a young bright eyed kid asks me about joining the Army I simply shake my head.

    The military as a whole needs to do a hard 180 degree shift and I mean fast. It's really sad what is happening right now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2023
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  12. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And the funny thing is, we are seeing the exact same thing in entertainment now. All these "woke" messages have absolutely destroyed at least 3 intellectual properties, some of them going back almost 5 decades. They just do not seem to get that almost nobody cares about that nonsense, and trying to force it onto us will just make us not see that content anymore. And the same thing is happening in the military. We join to serve, not to be given endless lectures about nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with our job.

    Look, several decades ago we had all that also, but it was nowhere near as pervasive. Maybe a days worth of such classes every quarter with some annually. But when I returned to the military in 2007 I was shocked even then at how much it had grown. And in the next decade it exploded until sometimes it seemed that was all we were doing.

    And the thing is, this is not even pushed by the "military". It is pushed by the civilians in the DoD. And for all of those that scream about the military budget, probably the first place they should look to trim the fat and excess is the DoD. Most do not even realize that for every 2 people in uniform, there is a civilian DoD employee. And I can guarantee that those civilian employees with their Union contracts get paid a hell of a lot more than those in uniform would be getting for doing the exact same job.

    4 decades ago, when we had a pay issue it was handled by those in uniform. All of our field equipment was issued by unit Supply NCOs (usually at the Battalion level). We might have had 2 or 3 people out of over a dozen in a chow hall that were civilians, normally the long term managers to give it stability as we rotated in and out every few years.

    And we ran our own freaking base housing! And our own barracks!

    Today, the military is "lousy" with civilians. Doing jobs that we should be doing, and making a hell of a lot more than we in uniform get for the same thing. I spent the last decade before I retired in the Reserves, and most of that was at a major Reserve Center in the Bay Area. There were about two dozen barracks on the base, but we never used them. They actually paid money for us to stay out in town if we lived over 25 miles away. And when I asked why, it was because the barracks were run by a civilian contract and the unit had to pay them if they wanted to use the barracks.

    And it was freaking cheaper to put us up in the Ramada, Holiday Inn, and Hyatt than it was to put us up in the barracks in our own base! And it was cheaper to pay us a daily per diem than to have us eat in our own chow hall!

    I was even shocked several years ago when I returned to my first military posting. Several hundred people are still stationed there, and they do not even have a chow hall anymore, and have not had one in over two decades. And in talking with some of those their one of their biggest complaints was keeping their weight in check because everything they ate was fast food or microwave and they were only allowed small fridges in the room so at least twice a week they were having to go shopping. And the chow hall when I was stationed there? The building is still there, it's a lounge for the civilian employees.

    Oh, and the base clinic was gone also, they all have to see civilian doctors out in town and deal with that nonsense.

    I had planed on staying in until I hit 60 and was forced to retire. But a couple of years ago I also simply had enough and got out. I just could not take it anymore, and as a grown assed man in my 50s I hated being treated like a little child by people who had never worn the uniform.
     
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  13. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    Interesting read as almost always. What media franchises are you referring to?

    You scored a gig at the Presidio and are complaining about it? Hahaha - sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously though, there had to be something good about a posting to the P.

    I suspect the cultural indoctrination and private sector money grab are both as bad as you describe. Hopefully things are a bit more old school on active army bases with regard to barracks, chow and medical. But I heard from a guy that barracks were at some point no longer allowed to be inspected, as if they were run like a college dorm or some s.

    I still expect the big recruiting problem is mostly due to pay differentials with civilian options and some serious disillusionment due to Iraq and Afghanistan. The foodie craze that has made being a cook seem glamorous would have affected my point of view at least a little back in '83.
     
  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    We can start with Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and continue with the MCU, then go on from there.

    Uh, I never said The Presidio. And the Army turned that over to the Park Service almost 3 decades ago. I was never stationed at the Presidio, not even when it was open. The only times I had ever been there even when it was open was dropping guys off or picking them up at the hospital there.

    Nope, it is just as bad as not worse than you can imagine. And not pushed by the "military" itself, but civilian DoD employees.

    Go to almost any chow hall, and it is 80% civilians now. No more KP or mess duty, I guess having to wash dishes was to demeaning so instead of that being a rotating duty most had to do at one time or another, they pay civilians to do that. And civilians do most of the jobs inside the chow hall anymore. And the same with the barracks, they are all managed by civilian companies. I was at Fort Bliss when that transition happened in around 2009. Before then, all room assignments were given out by the First Sergeant and the Supply Sergeant. After that, you went to see some civilians on the other side of the base and they gave you your room assignment. And you had to arrange for them to come inspect your room before checking out.

    And it became a nightmare for many, although I was lucky enough to not live in the barracks. But in the past, if two roommates did not get along, they could go to the First Sergeant and he would change the sleeping arrangements. And it could be done fairly quickly. Now, you need a letter approving the change by the First Sergeant and the CO, and take it to the civilians that run it, and if they feel like it they will change room assignments. In a week, if you are lucky. One of the biggest complaints the First Sergeants had when I was leaving active duty was how little control they had over that anymore.

    Hell, we could not even change our own lightbulbs! And no, that is not a joke. If we had any lights go out, we had to call the company that managed the barracks, and they would send out 2 electricians maybe a week later who would make sure that the problem is just a burned out light bulb, then they would change them.

    That is how crazy things have even gotten on the active duty side.
     
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  15. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    No it's just as a bad on active army bases. I'll echo almost everything Mushroom has described. Our bases are basically run and managed by civilians. I attended one of my quarterly meetings last week with the heads of all major departments on the installation and 75% of the room were civilians. The other only Soldiers in there weren't even department heads but members of a platoon who showed up to "show face" as they claim. Go up to any Soldier anywhere in the Army and simply say the word "CIF" and watch their reaction. CIF (Central Issuing Facility) is the place on post where gear is issued and it's all run by civilians and the Soldiers HATE it, including me. It's to Soldiers what the DMV is to civilians and run just as poorly. I've been fighting with those guys for years in regards to getting proper gear for my Soldiers, writing multiple letters, emails, memo's, complaints to General Officers, etc.

    Transportation/Vehicle dispatching is civilians, Quartermaster is civilians. Yes there are uniformed Quartermasters somewhere but we don't interact with them, if you goto the Quartermaster building for service it's all civilians in there.

    Post housing department = civilians
    Medical = half civilians if not more
    The list goes on. Even the gate guards are civilians half the time. Why are we paying civilian security forces to check ID's at the gate when we have Soldiers? Even official military positions within active duty Brigades are civilians. For example my position in my own unit, I'm obviously a Soldier and my position is that of a Field Grade Officer yet my equivalent counterparts in other units on base are GS12/13 level civilians. That's why when I attend meetings as I did last week I'm usually the only actual green suiter in the room.

    I used to think the recruitment and retention issues were pay primarily pay related as well until the raw data began to emerge. I was on this very forum arguing such on a few occasions in the past. Sure that does play a role even now, but the single biggest issue now is the progressive movement within the Army and that is irrefutable at this point. If it were simply the pay then the data would show that but it doesn't. The sheer amount of money that Congress has been throwing at us over the past few years in the form of incentive pay and bonuses would make one's jaw hit the floor. For example in my career field they have been handing out SIX figure bonuses for years with contracts that are allowed to run concurrent with existing contracts. For example if you owe 2 years for the rank you just pinned and accept the bonus that comes with a 3 year contract you only owe one year. They are willing to pay people an additional SIX FIGURES on top of their current pay to just do ONE more year in many cases and most are still saying no. Even with that going on they STILL can't keep people when their contracts run out, nowhere NEAR as many people took the bonuses as they were expecting. I have the raw data, our latest "strength of the force" data dump for my specific career dropped 2 weeks ago. I will not post the actual numbers as that information is close hold but it is DIRE.

    It's so bad that the Army has began to change tactics and instead of just throwing us more money they've decided to adopt the strategy of chastising us for leaving. Earlier this year Big Army Brass came to pay us a visit as they made their way around the force giving their briefs about this whole problem. We gathered in a room and they stood up there and said with a raise of hands who is planning on ETS'ing or retiring within the next two years. The majority of the room raised their hands and big brass proceeded to go on a tirade saying what has happened to loyalty in the Army. "I can't understand why you would just quit on the force like that." "Those of you wanting to become quitters need to seriously reevaluate where your loyalty to this country lies and take into consideration all the Army has given you throughout your careers". Then continued on about healthcare, housing ,etc.

    We were stunned, yeah big bad Army Brass, in a time where you can't even pay people enough to stay in surely condemning them for having the audacity to fulfill their contractual obligations and honorably discharge will change their mind....
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2023
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  16. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Spot on. It's funny you mentioned the lightbulb thing in the barracks as I as literally just rolling my eyes about such a thing in regards to my Soldiers. Due to my position I'm indirectly responsible for all of the Soldiers within my unit and their issues are my problem depending on what the issue is. Soldier came to me a few weeks ago and said the lights in his room had been out for days and he only has a lamp he can use. He says he told his 1SG and it's being "worked on" so I let it go. Soldier comes back a few days later and says it's still dark in his room. I see the CSM in the hallway and I tell him about it and he says yeah I'm tracking Sir, we put the damn contract in last week to fix a bunch of them but we're still waiting, he's not the only one there's a bunch of Soldiers in that building with busted lights. I say screw it then lets just go to Home Depot and buy them ourselves I'll pay for them. He says we can't thats the problem, we aren't authorized to conduct any maintenance in the barracks due it all maintenance being under contract with public works. I call the DPW help desk and I get the run around about how we are on the docket and blah blah.

    So I drove over to the DPW building and walked right into the directors office and said fix the damn lights today or I'm installing new ones I don't care what number we are on the docket it's been weeks. He says it'll be done as soon as they can they have other priorities so I said fine I'm doing it myself and he says I can't it's against installation regulation whatever. So I simply said fine, file the official letter of complaint against us, here is my full name and rank, title, phone number, and office number, send it over and I'll get to it when I have time on my schedule. The lights were fixed that afternoon.

    The point is this is a DUMB problem to have in general, and not to be arrogant but this is a problem that is way beneath my level. I should not have to go barging into a civilian company office to get LIGHT BULBS replaced for my Soldiers in their rooms. No disrespect intended but this sort of thing is the main problem I have with civilians running all this stuff on military bases. Since they aren't in the military many of them tend to "flex" on military personnel, especially those civilians who used to be enlisted and now work as civilian contractors, many of whom got out as lower grade NCO's who just love the fact that they can stiff arm E-7s and 1SG's now that they no longer wear a uniform. This is by no means an isolated incident either, this happens all the time. I've literally lost count at the number of times I've had to escort Soldiers or NCO's to one of these places just to get them the service they need. It's amazing how professional and courteous these folks tend to get when I come barging in the door with the Soldier who they just told off the day prior. It just shouldn't be like this, it shouldn't take somebody like me who has the power to "out-flex" them in order for them to provide Soldiers with the proper respect they deserve. I swear it feels like I spend a good 10% of my week dealing with stupid little problems that should have been able to be handled by Lieutenants or NCO's but can't because a lot of these civilian folks only respond to "Command level" staff authority figures.
     
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  17. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    It is disappointing to learn that the Army has taken this DEI stuff to the point you both describe.

    This is a stunning failure of leadership to know the problem and not to take action to fix it.

    None of us back in C 3/9 would have appreciated being lectured about DEI even once a year, much less any more frequently.

    I don't recall sitting through a single class of this nature, thankfully.

    Seems to me that the fundamentals of being in the service covered it without any need to have classes on it.
     
  18. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    Unfixable lighting issues, the CIF, GS level civilians and contractor civilians - these sorts of problems rank around the same level as the DEI crap in the exit surveys?
     
  19. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    You can't blame "The Leadership", because they are just as trapped in the nonsense as the rest of us are. This almost all comes down from on high from the DoD itself.

    And it must be remembered the DoD is not military. They are the civilians that tell the military what to do and how to do it. And as most of them have to justify their jobs and high paychecks, they come up with endless hoops we must jump through.

    Good example, look at almost any time you have unit Block Leave, or a 96. First, a week out there will be a ton of classes we must take, to ensure that we do not do stupid things while we are away. Then about 2 or 3 day of "vehicle inspections". And fill out where you are going, how you are getting there, and every stop along the way on-line to be approved by the Army and your command. Where if you have 4 days off, you are limited to no more than 200 miles from post.

    And yes, I was dumbfounded when I returned to the military and experienced that. Roll the clock back to the 1980s and early 1990s, it was well known by my command that if we had a 96, I was going to drive to LA to see my kids. Just about 400 miles each way. And as a responsible member of the military, it was my job to ensure my car could make it there and back, and if I had a breakdown I still had a way to get back to base in time for Tuesday morning formation or it was my ass.

    Now fast forward to 2010. I just got back from a year overseas, and while I was gone my wife bought a motorhome. And we planned a drive to LA to see our son. Fill out the online trip planner, and it is rejected because I did not submit where I was stopping each night with hotel reservations every 250 miles of the trip there and back. And I did not put in where we were staying once we got to LA.

    And when my new CO asked me where I was staying, I simply said we were probably driving straight through to LA. We were in a freaking motorhome, if I was driving my wife would be sleeping in the back. And I would be sleeping when she was driving. We did not need motels or to plot most of that out, because we were in a freaking motorhome!

    And that actually had to go up to the mather fracking Battalion Commander so she could sign off on my planned leave travel.

    And the most stupid thing about that is, the year before I was assigned as a driver for the Battalion XO. Now remember, the Army regulations now state an individual is not allowed to drive their personal vehicle more than 250 miles in a single day. After that far they must stop for the night. Yet shortly before we deployed I drove the XO from El Paso to Yuma in a single day. That's over 550 miles, with nothing more than gas and bathroom breaks. Over twice the distance they allow me to drive my own car, and nobody thinks anything is wrong with that.

    No, I actually am a huge believer that the biggest problem in the military is the DoD. The one civilian for every 2 people in uniform that micromanages everything they do. And that is a source of huge bloat. When you essentially have 1 "administrator" for every two people that actually do a job, then you have a problem. Especially when most of those have never actually done those jobs themselves. And this is a great example where I would love to see the exact same regulations they put upon us having to be done by them.

    Mister Smith, a guy that runs the supply closet handing out reams of paper and boxes of Skillcraft pens now has to spend several days a month going through hours and hours of mandatory classes. And when he takes his vacation, he has to plan it all out and get it approved by a computer, the DoD, then his supervisor or he is not allowed to take his vacation.
     
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  20. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    It is the large amounts of bloat that are just not needed.

    And I did not say "unfixable lighting issues", it is literally light bulbs. It almost sounds like a joke.....

    Q: How many soldiers does it take to change a light bulb?
    A: None, that's the job of a highly trained union contractor.

    It is when you start piling it up higher and higher. My last decade was actually doing IT in the Army, yet I almost never actually touched a computer outside of doing the endless online courses we all had to do.
     
  21. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    No freaking way. There is no freaking way I would consider staying in the military with this bs. Way worse than even the DEI crap.

    But to be clear, when I called this a failure of leadership, I have in mind the very top. The JCS and the SecDef. Now I'm not privy to borrow a phrase here about the "flex" between the JCS and the SecDef, but the JCS I assume has some stroke.

    ***
    Ah, I like this phrase, flex. I think I'm going to look to include this into my current office jargon, sparingly saved for a discussion I see on the horizon and hope to avoid.
    ***


    Curious now that I think about it - what is the de facto vs. the on-paper chain of command from the President to Private Snuffy?

    It seems to me that that path de facto does not exist.

    But in spite of Milley's assertion that his role in the JCS is to advise, this seems incorrect to me. Isn't the JCS the formal path between the military and civilian leadership?

    Reading between the lines a bit here on your and Nightmare's posts, it seems clear to me that our troops are now-a-days held to account for how they comport themselves to civilian "authority" as part of just routine service life. This is an exceedingly poor structure for our servicemembers. Military leadership in this situation has completely lost to ability to influence morale and esprit-de-corps.

    I've had to do travel plans for business trips. I would view that drive for the XO could reasonably require an approved travel plan. Someone has lost their mind thinking that the government has a role to limit or review service personnel's travel on their own time. We didn't use the phrase 96, although we should have. It was a four day pass. I used a couple of them and road-tripped from Lawton to Louisville on one of them with a couple of my guys. It was around a 13 h drive. At 60 mph for just 8 hours that works out to 480 miles per day. Where t f did the DoD come up with 250???? Morons.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2023
  22. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member Donor

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    That post was in reply to Nightmare, not you, so whether you said it or not is irrelevant.

    It doesn't almost sound like a joke.

    It is a joke, but it's not funny.

    These additional things you and Nightmare are sharing make the DEI stuff look like nothing almost.

    Nightmare mentioned he holds a field grade rank, a Major then at a minimum.

    If I am an E whatever and need a Major to get involved with getting the lights fixed in my barracks then that pretty much qualifies in my book as unfixable lighting issues. And as Nightmare described this situation, it is just DUMB.
     
  23. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    No not even close. Off the top of my head from the most recent survey I saw I do remember a couple Soldiers talking about the barracks but it was mostly the standard Soldier stuff. The barracks "suck", the barracks rules suck such as no guests after 2200 or the NCO's on CQ being mean or something. Standard lower Enlisted complaints that have been the same forever. The DEI stuff really is the core of the complaints up and down the chain.

    I have a picture I took last year that I'm debating on sharing here that would really shed light on how bad this really is. Last year during one of these "readiness days" the troops were upstairs in the classroom receiving a brief. As I stated before I refuse to participate in these briefings anymore so I was walking from my office down the hall to use the scanner and 3 Soldiers that I know well were standing outside of the classroom. One of them was wearing the weighted "pregnancy vest" thing that I guess marriage councilors use to let husbands see how their wives feel during pregnancy or something. I stopped and asked them what in the hell was going on and the NCO said todays class was on "building cohesion and understanding of female Soldiers in the Army" or something like that. The guy wearing the vest just kept his head down, his NCO next to him said the civilian briefer is making all the men take turns wearing the vest and walking around for a while to gain a better understanding of the struggles pregnant female Soldiers go through. He said one of the E-7's got into an argument with the briefer earlier asking how in the hell is this training his Soldiers to do their jobs better and got up and walked out and took his platoon with him.

    I was shocked so I asked the Soldier if he minded if I took a picture of him because nobody is going to believe this. He said yes please do, then his NCO asked me if they had to stay in the class any more and I said screw it no, go back to your office and if any of your leadership has a problem with that tell them I said it and they can come talk to me. I went right to the Commander's office and said Sir do you know what is going on with the Soldiers right now? Look at this picture. His response in quote was "WHAT THE ****!? WHO THE **** IS MAKING THEM DO THAT?! WHERE ARE THEY SHOW ME RIGHT NOW!" and grabbed his hat to go march out the door. I said Sir it's the civilian briefer, this is today's "readiness day" topic I guess. He stopped and tossed his hat back on his desk and said "Damnit, we can't do anything about them, I thought it was one of one of our guys giving that brief today I was about to go lose my ****ing mind. We have to send people when the civilians come give the briefs though because they report the actual number of attendees up the chain." I told him I pulled the guys in the picture out of the class, he didn't care, and he laughed when I said that one E-7 pulled his platoon out after fighting with the briefer lady. He said "Well I can't blame him them for that, I would have done that too if I was stuck in there. I'll pretend to give a **** when her boss calls me crying about it later lol. God I can't wait to retire".

    And retire he has, one more excellent high ranking Commanding Officer who has just had enough of this crap. That story is 100% true and that picture is 100% real. I may ask the guy if he minds if I post it to show, block out his face and any identifiable information obviously. This is pathetic, the outside world has no idea what this woke DEI crap actual entails and what is actually happening with this stuff. Yes it really is THAT bad.
     
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  24. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And that is very much true. The exact same complaints in that aspect that I heard from the first Reagan Administration are the same ones being said today.

    And ultimately, that really does not matter as the military expects a 60-75% turnover in first term enlistments. People just doing their 4 to 6 years in then getting out, never having a single intention of serving more than a single term ever. In fact, in the early to mid 1980s it was not unusual for a lot of people to join just for the medical. I knew a bunch of couples that planned their kid to come about a year before they got out. So the military would pay for it all and not themselves. And it was not unheard of for gals to join after getting married, then serve only about a year and get out after having their kid. Literally using the military to pay for all the medical expenses.

    But this kind of thing is really killing the careerists. I know that if I had known what was coming I might not have never rejoined in 2007. And at that time there was a huge wave of us who rejoined, guys and gals entering middle age that had served between the eras of Reagan and Clinton that decided to come back in and do our part. And even those I knew from the Clinton era were largely disgusted with the way things had changed. I knew many who returned from 2007-2008 that like me intended on remaining in until retirement. But of over two dozen of them I know, I am the only one that did it.

    It is that 6 to 18 year in group that this is really killing. As many can more or less tighten their gut when they have to do this endlessly for 3 or 4 years. But when one considers doing it for over two decades or more, the military quickly looses a lot of the appeal it once had. And I know a lot that got out at the 8 to 12 year mark because they just could not stand it anymore.
     
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  25. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    @Grey Matter
    I asked the Soldier if he minded if I uploaded his picture as I mentioned in the previous post. He's fine with it he wants people to see it.

    This is what they are doing. How is this acceptable? This is not a voluntary class, this is MANDATORY. The Soldiers place of duty on these readiness days is to attend classes like this.

    Readiness Day.jpg

    Now ask yourself, as a bright eyed enthusiastic 18 year old young man with visions of joining the Army. Would you serve now?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2023
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