Will the War in Gaza Ignite the Middle East?..Israel and Iran On a Collision Course

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Iranian Monitor, Oct 21, 2023.

  1. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    38,302
    Likes Received:
    14,769
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Of course not. You are describing socialism

    He was incorrect. It was a fascist dictatorship.

    What you said is an opinion. Opinions aren't right or wrong. They are opinions.

    I guess there is always insult to defend your opinion. Yawn.
     
  2. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,064
    Likes Received:
    4,233
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    First of all, I appreciate your civility and feel that that civility lends weight to your arguments.
    I also suspect that if I had been born and raised in Israel I would share more of your opinions except when it comes to equal treatment.

    Just as I have been supportive of America's racial equality movement, I could not have supported Israel's racist "Nationality Law" (1) nor could I have been among the many Israelis who support ethnic cleansing. (2)

    Since I don't know of any other democracy that so blatantly institutionalizes racism and know of no other US supported country that is currently committing genocide, (3) I don't think that what you call "Palestinian propaganda" is responsible for growing, global anti Israel
    sentiment.

    It is partly because ethical Jews around the world are also condemning Netanyahu' genocidal agenda (3), (4) that I believe it is the actions of Israel's extreme right wing Netanyahu regime that is responsible for most global anti Israeli sentiment.

    My other concern is that if Netanyahu doesn't stop murdering innocent civilians by the tens of thousands, violent anti Jewish attacks can only become more commonplace around the world.

    Briefly put, countless innocent civilians have been murdered, IDF is bogged down against an enemy it grossly underestimated and Israel becomes more of a pariah and less secure with every passing day not because of "Palestinian propaganda" but because of the criminality of Netanyahu's genocidal agenda.

    Next, while I know that many Israelis have supported a just and durable peace, it is apparent that a larger, ruling right wing element has succeeded in derailing anything reasonable over the decades.
    From the viewpoint of Palestine's native residents, they had already surrendered over half of Palestine to foreign Jews.

    Even before last October, the "Settler" movements criminal expansionism proved that Israel didn't want peace.(5)

    The Israeli government's criminal support of "Greater Israel" expansionism via "Settlements" full of murderous extremists who massacred West Bank Palestinians with not only impunity but help from the IDF. (6)

    Peace in the Levant and throughout the region has never been more distant than since Netanyahu's failed "war on Hamas" / Gaza genocide and Iran is not the only country that is both willing and able to contain "Greater Israel" expansionism.

    Finally, during my conversations with Palestinian refugees in Southern Lebanon many years ago, they were not so obsessed with hating and / or killing Jews as they were with getting their homes back.

    I try to remain objective and am also sympathetic to innocent Israelis who were murdered and wounded on 7 October 2023 but the attack was admittedly no surprise in the cycle of violence is only to be made worse by Netanyahu's open ended genocidal blunder.

    Thanks,



    (1). "Israel approves controversial Jewish nationality law"
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...ontroversial-jewish-nationality-law-1.3570017

    EXCERPTS "The Bill, pushed through by the right-wing and religious coalition, definesIsrael as the nation-state of the Jewish people. The measure sets “the development of Jewish settlements nationwide as a national priority” and downgrades the status of Arabic from an official language to one with “special status”.

    “The result of this legislation will be to perpetuate the inferior status of the Arabs in Israel.”CONTINUED


    (2). “Nearly half of Israeli Jews believe in ethnic cleansing, survey finds”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/almost-half-of-israeli-jews-want-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-wake-up-call-survey-finds-a6919271.html

    EXCERPT “Almost half of Jewish Israelis believe Arabs should be "expelled or transferred" from Israel, a survey has found." CONTINUED


    (3). “A Textbook Case of Genocide”

    “Israel has been explicit about what it’s carrying out in Gaza. Why isn’t the world listening?”


    https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide

    EXCERPT " I have written about settler colonialism and Jewish supremacy in Israel, the distortion of the Holocaust to boost the Israeli arms industry, the weaponization of antisemitism accusations to justify Israeli violence against Palestinians, and the racist regime of Israeli apartheid. “

    “Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant declared it in no uncertain terms on October 9th: “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we will act accordingly.”

    Indeed, Israel’s genocidal assault on Gaza is quite explicit, open, and unashamed. Perpetrators of genocide usually do not express their intentions so clearly," CONTINUED


    (4). Jews Against Genocide statement and action
    http://www.ijan.org/uncategorized/jews-against-genocide-statement-and-action/

    EXCERPT "We, Jews Against Genocide, came to Yad Vashem, Israel’s memorial of the genocide committed against Jews, to honor the Palestinian children who are dying in a genocide committed by Jews.

    We brought dolls to symbolise the children of Gaza, and tried to bring a glimpse of the horror that Gazan’s face, to Israel’s doorstep. We hope to show Israel, and the world, the absurd reality of using the memory of one genocide to justify another." CONTINUED


    (5). “Israel Does Not Want Peace”
    https://www.haaretz.com/2014-07-04/...nt-peace/0000017f-db80-df62-a9ff-dfd75c210000


    EXCERPT “Israel does not want peace. There is nothing I have ever written that I would be happier to be proved wrong about. But the evidence is piling up. In fact, it can be said that Israel has never wanted peace – a just peace, that is, one based on a just compromise for both sides." CONTINUED


    (6). "Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Murderous West Bank Settlers"
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/11/israel-west-bank-palestinians-settlers-violence.html

    EXCERPT "Since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, settlers there have killed more than 120 Palestinians and injured at least 2,000. They have forcibly expelled more than 800 Palestinians from their homes, blown up their generators and solar panels, and burned down tents of Bedouin herders.

    Again: This has been going on not in Gaza but in the West Bank—which is governed by the Palestinian Authority, not by Hamas." CONTINUED
     
  3. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    38,302
    Likes Received:
    14,769
    Trophy Points:
    113
    We are being invaded by illegal immigrants at the moment but it is by invitation. Yes the U.S. decided long ago to be the planetary police force. Too bad. The U.S. doesn't start wars. It inserts itself into other peoples' wars.
     
  4. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,064
    Likes Received:
    4,233
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    I apologize for mistaking your sentiments and thought that I had made my American nationality clear.

    50 years ago, I spent 10 - 11 months walking and hitch hiking around the Middle East to see the realities of the region, its conflicts and learn about the people affected by US Middle East policy for myself.

    The myth that Israel doesn't practice terrorism is one perpetrated by our pro Israel Western MSM:

    “Studies continually show strong pro-Israel bias in western media”
    http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/studies-continually-show-strong-pro-israel-bias-western-media-881718416

    EXCERPT “Mainstream western media outlets are, by and large, infused with a pro-Israeli ideological bias that colors nearly all mainstream Western reporting on Israel-Palestine.

    Israel is assumed to be good, peaceful, and like ‘us’. The Palestinians, meanwhile, are backwards, violent, and foreign. These are the assumptions that most western news outlets start with," CONTINUED


    I have always been fascinated by the Middle East and its histories back to the pre Canaanite era.

    If you don't think that Israelis / Zionists weren't and aren't terrorists, you're not familiar with the heavily censored Nakba or aware that 90% of Gaza's men, women and mainly children have had their homes bombed and are homeless:

    "90% of Gaza is homeless"
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BPx5TUrYRF8

    Ethical Jews go beyond condemning Netanyahu for terrorism, they condemn him for genocide:

    "A Textbook Case of Genocide"
    https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide

    "Israel has been explicit about what it’s carrying out in Gaza. Why isn’t the world listening?"

    EXCERPT "Under international law, the crime of genocide is defined by “the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such,” as noted in the December 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. In its murderous attack on Gaza, Israel has loudly proclaimed this intent. Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant declared it in no uncertain terms on October 9th: “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we will act accordingly.”." CONTINUED

    Finally, IDF grossly under estimated Hamas' ability to not only survive but launch rockets from Northern Gaza that the IDF had "cleared".

    Iran is not the only non Arab country that would be eager to provide sophisticated weaponry.

    Even if Hamas is eliminated, there are 2.7 Billion Muslims all around the world and the Gaza genocide is certain to recruit more than Netanyahu can kill.

    Thanks,
     
  5. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    17,185
    Likes Received:
    2,452
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Exactly proving my point, never invaded but the biggest Warmonger.

    Nobody yet has disputed that title of lord of war.

    Are you proud of that title btw? (Sincere question, iLove aspects of America btw, my life is hip hop, art form created in new York, new york)
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2024
  6. Bob Newhart

    Bob Newhart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2021
    Messages:
    3,684
    Likes Received:
    1,477
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You just agreed that Israel is socialist.

    Yes, the state of Israel owns 93% of the property in Israel.
    Hitler wasn't fascist. That's a different type of socialism. Here's a video if you want to watch.

    You might want to read the Declaration of Independence as well. Dictatorships are approved by the people.
    Projection.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2024
  7. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    Messages:
    3,614
    Likes Received:
    2,728
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Even I am Israeli, first of all I am a human who tries to think clearly and I will criticize any Israeli wrong doing, the same as I will criticize any American or Palestinian wrong doing.
    I don't support the latest change to the "Nationality Law" and I don't support any ethnics cleansing.
    The purpose of establishing Israel was to protect Jews from pogroms and antisemitism, so this is the reason Israel is considered a Jewish country, the same as Germany is German country, Ukraine is Ukrainian country etc.

    If you read the link (2) - it says:
    "A study carried out by the Pew Research Centre found that around one in five adults questioned “strongly agreed” with the controversial statement, which amounts to ethnic cleansing under some definitions.".

    "one in five" is not exactly "many". I would like to see what the same poll will find asking Palestinians:
    "Do you strongly agree that that all Jews should be removed form the river to the sea?"
    or
    "Do you support Hamas Oct 7 attack?"
    or
    "Do you support kidnapping old Jewish people and young Jewish children?"

    If 70% of Palestinians would answers to the above question - "strongly agree" - would you continue to criticize Israel and defend Palestinians?

    I think if you will look around you will find a country who not many years ago blatantly institutionalized racism. Racism against Arabs Israel can explain - Israel is in war with Arab countries, some Israeli Arab citizens performed terror attack in Israel - so it is obvious the Israel will treat Arabs the same as the US treated US Japanese citizens during WWII or as England treated German citizens during the same time period - but the US racism against Blacks is totally unexplainable. So I am not deny there is some racism in Israel, but I remember also:
    it was an Arab judge who sentenced Jewish president to jail
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Karra

    Israel elected an Arab women as Miss Israel
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rana_Raslan

    Israel has Arab ministers:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issawi_Frej
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleb_Majadele

    As for "Netanyahu' genocidal agenda":
    If a Jew is saying 'it is genocide' - he/she is not more right if the same thing will say Arab, Chinese or Innuit, but there are few things we have to remember:
    1. attack on Gaza started after Hamas attacked Israel, murdering, raping and kidnapping Israel citizens. If Hamas didn't attack Israel, today Gaza citizens would be still living in their homes
    2. Israel warned Palestinians to leave territory it planned to attack, Hamas tried to force Palestinians to stay.
    3. Hamas armed many Palestinian civilian buildings by keeping there arms, ammunition and entry to underground tunnels.
    4. Many Palestinians would be saved if Hamas allow civilians to hide in underground tunnels.
    5. Israel had a choice - to keep all this building untouched, which would greatly increase Israeli causalities or to warn civilian population and to flatten buildings Israeli army considered dangerous.
    6. Only Hamas knows for sure how many civilians died in Gaza - as I said before - I don't trust numbers supplied by this terrorist organization
    7. The international court didn't define Israeli action as genocide, it even didn't demand to stop the war in Gaza.

    I agree that the war in Gaza did not serve Israel, IMHO because because of smart Palestinian propaganda.
    Why all these world wide demonstrations did not demand from Hamas to release at least old people, children and women?
    As someone wrote:
    "Black Lives matter, Israeli lives from the river to the sea depends on the context".

    What you saying is perfect proof of smart Palestinian propaganda.
    Yes, there are Israelis who believe that God gave Jews all this land, but they are minority. And who is Hamas? Hamas is fundamental Islam organization who in his chapter very clearly says it will never agree to any Jewish or any secular country in the Middle East. And I see people constantly are talking about this Jewish minority. I never saw a person who is saying: "Yes, there is in Israel Jewish minority who believes that God gave Jews Palestine, but there is Palestinian majority who think the same, only they believe in different God.

    PS: I removed your links because my text exceed allowed size.

    "Finally, during my conversations with Palestinian refugees in Southern Lebanon many years ago, they were not so obsessed with hating and / or killing Jews as they were with getting their homes back."

    Well, I hope such Palestinians exists, but it does not explain why these Palestinians no obsessed with hating and / or killing Jews sent terrorists who mostly kill Jewish civilians, like:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avivim_school_bus_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_the_Aroyo_children
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lod_Airport_massacre
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryat_Shmona_massacre
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma'alot_massacre
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoy_Hotel_attack
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Yehuda_Street_bombings#1975
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entebbe_raid
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_Road_massacre
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Synagogue_of_Rome_attack
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Danny_Katz
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv–Jerusalem_bus_405_suicide_attack
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadera_bus_station_suicide_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dizengoff_Street_bus_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_Lid_suicide_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Darom_bus_attack
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramat_Gan_bus_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramat_Eshkol_bus_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Road_bus_bombings
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Hill_attacks
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yaron_and_Efrat_Ungar
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_Peace_massacre
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Café_Apropo_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shalhevet_Pass
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphinarium_discotheque_massacre
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_restaurant_suicide_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_massacre
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matza_restaurant_suicide_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patt_Junction_bus_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Immanuel_bus_attack
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_University_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karkur_junction_suicide_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryat_Menachem_bus_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv_Central_bus_station_massacre
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidka_Square_bus_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_restaurant_suicide_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Street_bus_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Ashdod_Port_bombings
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_the_Hatuel_family
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beersheba_bus_bombings
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karni_border_crossing_attack
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stage_Club_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2005_HaSharon_Mall_suicide_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Ayin_axe_attack
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Rabbi_Meir_Hai
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Neta_Sorek_and_Kristine_Luken
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Itamar_attack
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Jerusalem_bus_stop_bombing
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaar_HaNegev_school_bus_attack

    And this is only a part of what Palestinians no obsessed with hating and / or killing Jews did.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2024
  8. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    17,185
    Likes Received:
    2,452
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Great post. Ppl should study this.
     
    Grau likes this.
  9. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,064
    Likes Received:
    4,233
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    Thank you,

    I have no delusions of changing any strongly held opinions but it seems obvious that Netanyahu can't kill his way to a secure and peaceful Israel.

    Israel is indeed on a "collision course" but it's not just with Iran. It's going to be with the surviving Muslims throughout the region for generations to come.
    Therefore, it is severely detrimental to the US and its interests abroad to aid and abet Netanyahu's genocidal folly.

    Thanks again and keep up the good work,
     
  10. Tipper101

    Tipper101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    6,047
    Likes Received:
    3,184
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Never heard of the war of 1812? Look it up
     
  11. Tipper101

    Tipper101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    6,047
    Likes Received:
    3,184
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Oh I also forgot the Aleutian Islands campaign of WWII.
     
  12. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    6,579
    Likes Received:
    1,651
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Iran has reportedly been provided an expansive list of Iranian operated bases and facilities outside of Iran that the US intends to target. And Iran has reportedly been withdrawing IRGS officers from Syria, handing over effective command of the military units there to others (probably Iraqi and Lebanese Hezbollah officers). But there are some expensive and sensitive facilities in Syria that even the Israelis have not targeted in the past. One of them reportedly houses a IRGC ballistic missile storage facility the Israelis would like the US to try to take out. The Israelis have been reluctant to hit this facility both because they have feared targeting it might see the missiles there launched at Israel and presumably because their bunker buster bombing capabilities are much weaker than the US. Yet, this facility (and Iran's naval assets in the Red Sea) are the kind of targets which Iran would have a hard time allowing the US to take out, even though outside of Iran. They represent big ticket item investments very different in character and implication than say some facility with a couple dozen cheap drones and cruise missiles. Moreover, the scope of the planned US strikes can also become an issue. A sustained US campaign could undermine the strength of these groups and the transport and logistical corridors which play an important role in their ability to operate.

    Anyway, Iran has to juggle a lot but it seems the US is planning on a course with more military consequence than political consequence for Iran. Which would be the opposite of what the Republicans and Israelis usually have in mind.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2024
  13. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,064
    Likes Received:
    4,233
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    To be fair, @zalekbloom wrote a civil, rational and respectful argument reflecting his point of view as a Jewish Israeli who is surrounded by many people who would like to destroy him, his friends and his family.

    He is not responsible for the Nakba, condemns all racism and is not happy about the carnage in Gaza.

    As I try to be objective, I must admit that that some of my own sentiments may be different if I were brought up and lived under the same circumstances.

    I tried to keep an open mind when talking with Palestinian refugees in Southern Lebanon in 1973 so I feel that it would be hypocritical not to afford him the same consideration, today.

    I look forward to responding to his thorough and thoughtful comment next.

    As always, many thanks
     
  14. HockeyDad

    HockeyDad Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2019
    Messages:
    5,314
    Likes Received:
    6,899
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Dunno, why are Palestinians joining with indigenous protestors to VIOLENTLY protest First Landing Day in Australia? You bring Palestinians in and they immediately begin protesting your county's existence and demand that you give it back to the people you stole it from. Makes you wonder which Australian billionaires are funding this idiocy. Whites are going to going to see their history erased in Australia, whites are going to be marginalized and Australia is going to get mass 3rd world immigration. You have the illusion of a Democracy exactly as we do. The Elite get what they want and your opinion on it really does not matter.

    The failed referendum means absolutely nothing. They are going to get what the failed referendum tried to get and the people can go to hell.

     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2024
  15. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    51,625
    Likes Received:
    22,932
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is a bit of irony there. Palestinian protesters and of course the far left explicitly target Israeli "colonialism" in particular and the existence of setter nations like the US, Canada, and Australia in general (oddly Latin & South American settler nations are never targeted).

    But, they also support open borders and want to continue to bring in more "settlers" from all over the world, marginalizing native aborigines even more.

    It's not a very consistent philosophy. It's more like "I hate [fill in the blank] and want them destroyed."
     
    zalekbloom and HockeyDad like this.
  16. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    17,185
    Likes Received:
    2,452
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You invaded yourself?
     
  17. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    17,185
    Likes Received:
    2,452
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's not odd that we don't target south American settlers, they speak another language so it's hard to discuss with them, obviously.

    iFor one, don't have an opinion on open borders particularly. I'd like UK immigration to be less for sure though, to keep wages up but the elites (right wingers here) want open borders to keep corporations happy.

    So the open borders issue is neither right or left. It's a mix, for different reasons.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2024
  18. Tipper101

    Tipper101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    6,047
    Likes Received:
    3,184
    Trophy Points:
    113
    you think British and Americans are the same? Wow
     
  19. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    9,064
    Likes Received:
    4,233
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male


    I may not have been clear in that I fully support Israel's right to exist and for Jews to be safe not only in Israel but around the world.

    One of my concerns is that the severity of Netanyahu's murderous folly has incited so much global hostility that in the coming months, Jews both in Israel and around the world will be less safe.

    I appreciate and am not surprised to hear that you oppose Israel's "Nationality Laws" and reject ethnic cleansing but I know of no democratic country in which members of one religious or ethnic group is given preferential treatment. Germany may be for Germans and Ukraine for Ukrainians but all Germans and all Ukrainians are supposed to receive equal treatment regardless of religious, racial or national background.
    For that reason and the previous existence of Palestinian non Jews, Israel, like any other democracy, cannot be a "Jews only" country.

    Re:
    “Nearly half of Israeli Jews believe in ethnic cleansing, survey finds”
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/almost-half-of-israeli-jews-want-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-wake-up-call-survey-finds-a6919271.html

    EXCERPT “Almost half of Jewish Israelis believe Arabs should be "expelled or transferred" from Israel, a survey has found." CONTINUED

    It doesn't matter if one strongly agrees or even slightly agrees in ethnic cleansing, it's still support for ethnic cleansing.

    I don't doubt that support for ethnic cleansing of Jews among Palestinians is even higher since October 2023 but the US government is only supporting Israeli ethnic cleansing and that is detrimental to both Israel's and America's best long term best interests.

    Re:
    Again, you're omitting the fact that the Arabs used to inhabit all of Palestine and still feel betrayed by British colonial machinations (i.e. abrogating the McMahon Agreement in favor of the Balfour declaration and the artificial dividing of Palestine by distant, foreign governments who favored foreign Zionists over Palestine's native residents.

    Whether this is "ancient history" or not, it is what the regional Arabs felt 50 years ago and, apparently, still feel that way just as modern day Israelis feel a right to Palestine / Israel because of the conquests of the ancient Hebrews.

    I will agree that America has had a dismal history of racism and supporting racist regimes but America doesn't tolerate murderous, racist rampages against innocent, West Bank Arabs like the Israeli government does. (1)

    Re:
    The 7 points that you mention condemning the way Hamas is resisting Israel's "Settler" expansionism and decades of deadly occupation / blockade when 7 October 2023 is just part of the cyclical violence like Operation Cast Lead, Operation Pillar of Cloud, Operation Cutting Edge etc only Hamas was the attacker last October.

    The atrocities committed by Hamas were no different than those inflicted by the IDF over the decades:

    "'Fire at every person': Israeli soldiers reveal they were ordered to shoot to kill in Gaza combat zones – even if targets may have been civilians"
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fire-at-every-person-you-see-israeli-soldiers-reveal-they-were-ordered-to-shoot-to-kill-in-gaza-even-10223427.html

    EXCERPT "The Israeli military deliberately pounded civilian areas in the Gaza Strip with incessant fire of inaccurate ordinance during last year’s war against Hamas and was at best indifferent about casualties among the Palestinian population."CONTINUED

    Your item # 7:
    Re:
    While the majority of the world condemned Israeli genocide it was primarily the veto / influence of the US that limited the scope of the finding.

    I will try to answer your question:
    1. I believe that more and more of the world sees the Israelis as brutal occupiers who brought the tragic attack on themselves.
    To be clear, I do not support what Hamas did but even Israeli intelligence knew that the attack would occur
    2. Many people wonder why IDF participated in the killing of hostages; was it incompetence or an effort to make Hamas look worse. (2)
    3. At least in American MSM, there has been repeated condemnations of Hamas's crimes plus the usual pro Israeli bias.

    Among the other questions you asked was:
    Just as Hamas is perceived as more militant than the PLO, it will probably be less violent than the resistance / terrorist groups that replace it in the future if the cyclical violence continues and "Settlers" continue to murder and steal with Israeli / US Government aid.

    From my perspective, IDF is losing its "war" on Hamas militarily, strategically and morally as Iran, the BRIC nations and much of the rest of the world benefit from Netanyahu's fatally flawed attempt to kill his way to security.

    Nothing has done more to recruit generations of anti Israeli terrorists / resistance fighters than the images, carnage and suffering in Gaza where 90% of the population has been bombed out of their former homes.

    While I am not optimistic about the future of the Middle East, I wish you good health and the best of luck.

    Thanks,

    (1). "Israel Must Loudly Arrest the Murderous West Bank Settlers"
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/11/israel-west-bank-palestinians-settlers-violence.html

    EXCERPT "Since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, settlers there have killed more than 120 Palestinians and injured at least 2,000. They have forcibly expelled more than 800 Palestinians from their homes, blown up their generators and solar panels, and burned down tents of Bedouin herders.

    Again: This has been going on not in Gaza but in the West Bank—which is governed by the Palestinian Authority, not by Hamas. Some of those killed were members of militant groups, but most were attacked simply because they were Palestinians. In any case, they had nothing to do with Hamas’ attack on Israel from Gaza." CONTINUED


    (2). “Report: 7 October testimonies strike major blow to Israeli narrative”
    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...nies-strikes-major-blow-to-israeli-narrative/

    EXCERPT “New first-hand accounts from witnesses of Israel’s clashes with Hamas militants on 7 October suggest that, in their desperation to contain the surprise incursion, Israeli troops indiscriminately fired on their own citizens with heavy weaponry, resulting in potentially scores of Israeli deaths from so-called “friendly fire”.

    Unverified claims circulated by Israel that Hamas militants beheaded 40 babies on 7 October were widely rejected as propaganda which, critics argue, was designed to garner sympathy for Israel to carry out collective punishment of Gaza’s 2.2 million. However, a closer examination of events by The Grayzone tells a different story: one in which the Israeli military itself bears responsibility for numerous civilian deaths. The emerging details not only contradict the Israeli government’s version of events, but indicate that, in the chaos of battle, reckless Israeli fire likely led to significant casualties among the Israeli population.” CONTINUED
     
  20. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    17,185
    Likes Received:
    2,452
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Father and son.

    All but two presidents have British ancestry
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2024
  21. Tipper101

    Tipper101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    6,047
    Likes Received:
    3,184
    Trophy Points:
    113
    cool, so you should probably watch what you say if you meant we’ve never been invaded by anyone we don’t have ethnic ties to because you didn’t make any such ridiculous stipulation and in point of fact you’re wrong on that account too as I pointed out with the Aleutian campaign in WWII.

    point of fact we’ve been invaded by foreign governments multiple times so you are wrong. Learn your history and when you are wrong stop moving goal posts.
     
  22. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    38,302
    Likes Received:
    14,769
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Apparently you have a bizarre definition for socialism.

    Germany was a fascist dictatorship regardless of what you or your video say. I can't watch internet videos so I had to pass on that one.
     
  23. Bob Newhart

    Bob Newhart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2021
    Messages:
    3,684
    Likes Received:
    1,477
    Trophy Points:
    113
    @fmv just called his own definition for socialism bizarre.

    Ok . . .
    Your only arguments have been circular ones.

    I guess you weren't able to find a copy of the Declaration of Independence either.
     
  24. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    38,302
    Likes Received:
    14,769
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Argumentative.
     
  25. Esau

    Esau Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2015
    Messages:
    17,185
    Likes Received:
    2,452
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So basically you're falling back on an Alaskan province as the only example of USA being invaded.

    Utterly pitiful and my original point still stands.
     

Share This Page