Without Israel, would Palestine exist?

Maybe that wouldn't be happening if the Palestinians did not murder Jews and launch rockets into Israel every chance they get.

 

When did an occupied nation NOT resist their occupiers? When did humans peacefully allow others to steal their property and their water rights, destroy their orchards and farmland, bulldoze their houses, deny access to farmland, prevent travel, etc. When has a civilian population ever accepted being ruled by military law of a foreign occupying nation? And, that's just West Bank.

Beyond that, the IDF states that President Abbas is their critical partner in security.

 

The day that Israel was proclaimed, the Arabs went on strike and started attacking Jews. The day after Israel was proclaimed, they declared war and invaded Israel. After they lost, they refused to recognize Israel and agreed to the three noes: no peace, no recognition, no negotiations.

The fact is that the Arabs have been waging war on Israel since the day it was founded. They are responsible for everything that has happened to them.

 

Today, the war is being carried out by Israel as the occupying nation, ethnically cleansing West Bank for financial gain, slaughtering men, women and children as they live in their homes.

The state of Palestine is founded today on the principle that Israel is permanent and the objective being that the two nations coexist side by side. Even Hamas has signed up to that.

Yet, Israel's ethnic cleansing proceeds.

 

The Arabs have never stopped trying to destroy Israel.

Bull(*)(*)(*)(*).

The fact that they elected a terrorist organization to lead their government proves that to be a lie.

No they haven't.

 

Who hasn't?
Try reading why they left and who really owned the land. It never belonged to Palestinians as there were none. It belonged mostly to absentee Turkish landlords. Most arabs were simply working the land for them.

Again the real ethnic cleansing is of the Jews and Christians from the Middle east. The Palestinians are being used by their arab neighbors as fodder to make Israel look bad. If mexico started sending rockets into Texas saying its theres and they want it back how long do you think it would take us to invade Mexico

 

The state of Palestine is most definitely NOT attempting to "destroy Israel", and if Israel is killing Palestinians on the grounds that there are terrorists somewhere, that is collective punishment at best.

Hamas stated the permanence of Israel during the Clinton administration. And, they stated that West Bank negotiations with Israel would be supported by Gaza. They have always refused to recognize Israel as a "Jewish State" as that is a recognition of apartheid and a betrayal of all Arab citizens of Israel.

Hamas reaffirmed their commitment to a permanent Jewish state as well as renouncing violent means of achieving statehood as a requirement of joining the unity government of Abbas last winter.

Of course, that did not commit Gaza to ignoring its national defense.

 

Whatever they were doing for a job, they were living there.

Then, war came and they got out of the way.

And, by international law that is a legitimate action that does not invalidate citizenship and it does not justify Israel's theft of their property.

Your nonsense about Palestinians being used is a disgusting and cheap slur.

Your Mexico comparison proves how bogus you are. First of all, if we conquered Mexico and placed its people under US military law, you can bet that Mexicans would object - including with force. And, if we followed that up with an organized program of property theft and destruction, giving Americans the right to Mexico's best farmland, that would raise criminal and human rights violation to a level that starts to approximate what Israel is doing in West Bank..

Who the heck do you think you are that you could suggest that kind of behavior is acceptable?? Is there ANY American principle or law that you believe in?

 

Its actions prove otherwise.

How is it not collective punishment when the Palestinians kidnap and murder Israelis and indiscriminately fire rockets into populated areas?

Its charter explicitly says that its goal is the destruction of Israel.

Agreements with Hamas are not worth the paper they're written on.

Show me one example of apartheid in Israel.

No they didn't.

Are we talking about the same organization?

 

Israel declared its independence just on the day the mandate expired ...

 

The IDF says you are wrong. They say President Abbas is their primary partner in security. That's why over the last years they have turned over significant security work to Abbas.

The murder of the Israeli kids that came before this last war was perpetrated by a Hamas group that headquarters in Turkey and does not even inform either of the two Hamas groups in Gaza of their plans or the actions they have taken. That is, there is no communication there.

Netanyahu specifically stated that he was taking out retribution on the people of Gaza for that act - which is illegal collective punishment.

Gaza started firing rockets AFTER Netanyahu clamped down on the Gaza blockade - which was a clear act of war, accepted as such by every nation in the world. It's impossible to defend the fact that the rockets they used couldn't legitimately be considered to have been aimed at military targets. But, they did almost zero damage, probably causing less death than a robust protest. On the other hand, Israel slaughtered 2000 Palestinians (almost all civilians) including targeting occupied civilian housing and specifically targeted civilian infrastructure in direct contravention of international law.

Appealing to the "charter" is total BS. That is superseded by the unity government documents and by other clear communication. Hamas is a loosely organized group of at least 3 parts and there is zero chance that they are going to come together to write one single charter. Pointing to the charter is pure sophistry.

One example of apartheid in Israel: Arab citizens of Israel are not free to live where they choose. This includes that building permits are screened based on the proximity of other Arabs and Jews and are commonly denied on the basis of ethnicity and religion.


You need to be keeping up with the news. Your lack of knowledge of Hamas is glaring. Your rosy picture of what is going on inside Israel is not at all accurate. And, events such as the killing of the Israeli and Palestinian kids that led up to the latest of the wars in Gaza would be known to you if you were paying attention to important events in Israel.

 

You said that Israel was ethnically cleansing Palestine. Now, you're saying that they are cooperating with the President of Palestine. Either Abbas is a quisling, in which case your point is irrelevant, or you are contradicting yourself.

Source?

You keep contradicting yourself.

If the Mexican government started kidnapping and murdering U.S. citizens, we would be well within our rights to punish them for that.

Because they were trying to kill Israeli citizens.

That's because Israel actually tries to protect its people. Hamas tries to get as many Palestinians killed as it possibly can so that it can use those deaths for propaganda purposes.

Not really.

Hamas Covenant

That is not apartheid.

 

Abbas is working within the law in order to establish the state of Palestine, free of occupation. Period.

If the Mexican government started killing US citizens we would have a right to move on the government of Mexico. It would give us NO right to kill Mexican citizens - nor would it give us the right to start driving Mexicans off their real estate for ownership by US citizens.

In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."

You can definitely find disgusting and even criminal statements made by members of Hamas, just like you can find hateful and even criminal statements made by Netanyahu's current cabinet. Trying to use that is total nonsense.

The direction of Palestine comes from President Abbas. Khaled Meshaal represents the government of Gaza, and he acceded to the unity government of Abbas which included the requirement to agree that:
- Israel is permanent, and Palestine will live in peace with Israel.
- limitation to peaceful means (which does not mean that there will be no military defense)
- that Hamas gets no seats in the unity government.

Netanyahu moved to undermine the unity government - an incredibly bald faced move against peace.

 

I was responding to your comment about the blockade.

He also said, "Palestine – from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, from its north to its south – is our land, our right, and our homeland. There will be no relinquishing or forsaking even an inch or small part of it,"

Which is a complete reversal of everything they have ever said in the past.

 

A blockade is an act of war. War requires more justification than a murder.

Yes. There has been significant progress on the Palestinian side.

To have any chance of peace, that progress must be recognized.

In the last negotiations between Israel and Palestine, Israel demanded the right to continue stealing Palestinian land DURING the negotiations!! And, that continues through to today.

Israel can not expect peace AND continue ethnic cleansing operations. There has to be change on the Israeli side.



Hamas is a serious problem. Even the political part is not acceptable. The best and easiest way to reduce the two parts of Hamas based in Gaza would be to allow Abbas to control the border with Gaza. That would remove both funding and political focus from Hamas, eroding their only means of retaining the good will of the people.

The third part of Hamas, the one based in Turkey, is harder to oppose other than as a general terrorism problem, as far as I know. So, a move toward peace that Palestinians recognize is important.

Today, Netanyahu prevents Abbas from operating in Gaza, thus weakening the Abbas government to the point of causing it to be on the verge of failure. As Israel blocks political efforts for peace and security for Palestinians, it is hard to contain the natural call for an armed approach.

The IDF sees Abbas as their key partner. His decision to continue moving against the Abbas government is a huge mistake by Netanyahu.

 

Read the PLOs charter or Hamas

 

Living there does not mean you own the land there

War came and they had the choice (as many did) to stay in Israel or believe the arabs would win and give them even more land so they left. Yes some were forced out but so were jews from all the surrounding nations.

Israel never stole their property

How they have been used is disgusting. The difference between Israel and the muslim nations around it is Israel, has taken in its refugees instead of using them as propaganda.

So you think we would just sit here and let Mexico attack us. Remember if were going to give it to who was there the original name of the west bank was Judea and Samaria . Are those arab names? There have always been Jews there for 4 or 5000 years. Palestine was first known as Israel

 

Those are long out of date.

The Abbas government has always stated the permanence of Israel and its direction of living in peace beside it.

Hamas comes in three separate parts. There is NO chance of them replacing their charter documents, as some parts don't even talk anymore.

The elected Hamas leadership of Gaza has stated that negotiations by Abbas are backed by them. They also acceded to the Abbas unity government, again stating that Israel is permanent.

Pointing to documents long known to be dead is sophistry.

 

What I like to remind about the blockade of Gaza is that is not only Israel to run it, but also Egypt [anyway I'm not aware of Hamas and Palestinians planning to "thank" Egypt like they "thank" Israel ... this was humor ...]. Gaza is not a triangle, but a rectangular land and one of the first side of that land is the Egyptian borderline.

So without the active participation of Egypt the "blockade" of Gaza would be impossible.

If this blockade is considered an "act of war" ... Egypt is moving war against Gaza.

 

No it's not.

Hamas is still a terrorist organization and it is still running the Palestinian government.

Can't you at least come up with a somewhat coherent argument? You are making no sense.

One one hand, you keep accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing and have repeatedly called them an apartheid state. On the other hand, you keep bringing up the negotiations between Palestine and Israel. Why would Israel negotiate with the people they are supposedly trying to kill? Furthermore, why would the Palestinians keep negotiating with the people who are trying to kill them?

 

Next you will be telling me that Iran also does not call for the destruction of Israel. Muslims are allowed to lie to infidels so I don't believe a word they say

 

I'm talking about the theft and cleansing related to the creation and expansion of settlements in West Bank.


I made it very clear that we would not sit here and let Mexico attack us. What we would NOT do is target civilians with missiles, steal the property of Mexicans in Mexico and give that property to US citizens to live there, or take other criminal actions that Israel is taking today in Palestine.

btw, justifying theft of personal property on the grounds that the names have an ethnic ring to them is pathetic. Do you think Mexico has a right to steal the property of people living in San Diego, San Francisco, Los Alamos, Escondido, etc.? Do you think we have more rights of personal property in New Mexico because we added "New" to the name?

Sorry. What a region was once called and who once inhabited the land a couple thousand years ago is not a foundation for legalizing ethnic cleansing today - or even just for expanding a nation by changing its borders. Let's remember that changing a national border does NOT mean people lose property rights.

Let's remember that we support rule of law, human rights, rights of property, etc.

 

Israel does not target civilians they go out of their way to warn them

Those settlements are on Israeli soil. Again they sole nothing. In fact they have given up muc of theland they could have keep by conquest to try to gain peace. All it does it give the Palestinians more territory to launch missiles at them from,

So if who owned it 1st doesn't matter whats their claim on it? There never was a nation called Palestine. There is no such people

http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/7/palestinians1.htm
Lets remember we do not support terrorists

 

Every nation recognizes a full blockade as an act of war. In international law, a blockade is an act of war. Please be serious.

The elected leadership of Gaza are Hamas members, but they are separate from the armed resistance group of that name that operates in Gaza and they have no relationship of any kind with the group based in Turkey by that name. Thus, the kids killed by "Hamas" were killed by the group in Turkey and the two groups in Gaza had no ability to influence that in any way, nor did they know about it.

The reason for negotiations is for each side to be secure and self ruled within mutually respected borders.

Israel's apartheid is a separate issue, involving their treatment of their own citizens and of those who have property in Israel.

 

How is it no Jews can live in Palestine but Muslims Arabs can live and be citizens of Israel yet its the Israelis who are the racists