Women in Combat? Why? (Part II)

I never said I didn't take issue with the trigger pullers comments, I just wasn't in the mood at the time
to write a lengthy post regarding the hazards of flying in mountainous SW Asia with limited
navaids (just one example)...or as you already pointed out mortar and rocket attacks directed at airfields

At no, it isn't kicking in doors or uncovering buried IED's...but it's not a Sunday picnic
as the folks on the ground seem to think it is....but then again at the risk of sounding condescending to the
ground pounders what I always say "if it's so easy, then why aren't you doing it?"

You're in the C-130 community as well being part of a Combat Talon crew and I appreciate
your service and your comments as well.

 

That's true. There was/are certainly mortar and rocket attacks directed at airfields that the Air Force has had to contend with. The ladies that I served with also did an outstanding job serving our country.

 

My understanding is that Courtney is actually in the Air Force.

 

He should know better if that's the case.

 

Shack. It goes for all of us, but some more than others. MANPADS have been shot at every platform in OEF, even airliners. And we do not get it any easier just because we are faster. Ground pounders will never know better.

 

The grass is always greener on the otherside. I doubt you fly boys and girls could appreciate the sheer terror of EFPs either.

 

F*ck those.....

Look, we all have our own jobs to do, you fly boys/girls have ya'lls dangers, and we have our own. Is what it is.

I will say this...I LOVED the sight of A-10's...

 

Anyone who served in the sandbox, including civilian contractors, was exposed to those
penetrator bombs on the highway between BIAP and the Green zone and they don't discriminate when they kill.

Aircrews are on the ground on occasion, believe it or not. We may not go looking
for trouble while we're there, but frequently trouble finds you.

 

In the end, what really matters is that all the services fight under the same flag and back each other up when the (*)(*)(*)(*) hits the fan



That way we can/could all get back home alive to our families. George Orwell once said: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." So, it's why I like to offer thanks to service members and veterans when I run across them.

 

A lot of ground pounders have also been shot out of the sky.

 

Yes, but the point is IgnoranceIsBliss we all served or are currently serving under the same flag. The flyboys have a job to do and they do their best to back up the ground pounders when they can. Just like if a pilot is shot down, the ground pounders go out and do their best to try and rescue downed pilots. We all fought and serve under the same flag. Ultimately, we are all on the same team. You had pilots shot down over Vietnam and captured by the enemy and were tortured by the enemy for many years in isolation. Those POW pilots beared some pretty serious scars for our country. Pilots come under fire and bear the scars for this nation just like the ground pounders in the infantry do.

What's important is we back each other up and never lose sight that we all serve under the same flag and fight for that flag and we all want to get back home alive to our families and loved ones. That's what really matters. Don't downplay the sacrifices or ignore the importance of the job the flyboys have to do or the fact we all served or have served under the same flag. Yeah, the flyboys aren't infantry, but they make sacrifices and put themselves on the line for our country too.

 

We give them and their gear a ride in a four-prop tin can and typically don't stick around,
so it's natural that they think of us as glorified bus drivers...

 

I won't downplay the sacrifices of others, dying for your country is the same in the end, whether you're a Navy SEAL or a Desk Clerk, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend like everyone risks the same. Between September 2010 and April 2011 the entire U.S. Air Force lost 16 men in theatre in Afghanistan. During that same time period, one single Marine Battalion, 3/5 Darkhorse, lost 24 KIA and more than 200 WIA (many amputees). Everyone's on the same team, and everyone takes risks, but in the end when everyone marches around waving their flags telling war stores there are a hell of a lot more "ground pounders" missing in ranks and walking around with missing limbs and scars than support troops. A small minority of the military does the lion's share of the blood letting. Don't try and pretend that that blood is spilled proportionately throughout all ranks; that's doing a grave disservice to those like Sgt. 1st Class Kristoffer B. Domeij who was just killed on 14th combat deployment as a Ranger.

3/5 Darkhorse

 

All true, and I don't think anyone is saying otherwise..

However we have an all-voluntary military now.

No draft since '73.

Folks choose the combat arms of their own volition,
what I sometimes don't quite "get" is that for example the Air Force
gets a reputation as chair jockeys...never in the fray.

Ok, well...they voluntarily walked into a recruiter's
office and signed the contract...and unless they've been living in a cave
would have to know the risks inherent in the combat arms profession if the nation actually
went to war. Well after 9/11 we did go to war...the (*)(*)(*)(*) hit the proverbial fan.

So I'm not sure if I understand the mentality here...

"we're doing all the fighting and dying here"
"you get 3 hots and a cot every day and live behind the wire
doing a safe and cushy job"
"meanwhile we're out on patrols kicking in the doors, getting blown
up by buried IED's and actively engaging bad guys"

All true, I'm not disputing that, the majority of the Air Force personnel
won't see combat...some of course do..but the majority are in support roles.

Here's my question...

They volunteered for the combat arms, they chose the MOS more than likely ...
not draftees...but volunteers.

Draftees I have sympathy for...but frankly...if someone is going to
be condescending about how "easy" others have it...
my natural response is going to be..

Sorry you were too stupid to qualify for the Air Force, which typically
has higher ASVAB/AFQT standards than the Army or Marines.

Just never got that...
I'm thankful we have young men who willingly place themselves in direct ground combat...
but in so doing I see no reason to place them on the mantle far above anyone else's service.

You young guys, think that every single war ever fought has been one like Iraq and Afghanistan...
In WWII...
the 8th Air Force lost more men than ALL of the Navy, Army and Marines ...COMBINED in the Pacific theater...
just one unit...the 8th Air Force...comprised mainly of B-17 squadrons. More casualties than in 10 years
of the Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts...

That's just the 8th Air Force. More young men died...than in 10 years of fighting since 9/11

26,000 KIA to be precise in the 8th Air Force during WWII.

Where's there statues?


They were getting obliterated over the skies of Europe...all in support of the ground guys.

Yes, in these asymmetrical wars of Iraq and Afghanistan, the ground forces have borne the brunt of the scars...
the brunt of the casualties...but historically the Army Air Force /Air Force has never been been afraid to fight...on the contrary.

 

By your reasoning we shouldn't give Policemen or Firefighters any credit because they knew what they're doing is inherently dangerous. If anything volunteering for the danger and misery is more comendable. Is that law clerk who never leaves CONUS really doing much more than a civilain?

I'm not looking for sympathy here, I'm looking for an acknowledgement that some bleed a lot more than others. Every once in a while at school I'll see a never deployed reservist or even an ROTC kid get commended as a "hero". Most are humble enough to brush it off, but some glorify themselves and even use it to their advantage. I think to myself that the praise and "hero" brand they get is from the work done and blood spilled from veterans like you and myself. I also can't help but think that so much of this "praise" is from civilains watching battle footage of Fallujah/Mosul etc and the countless stories about dead and wounded soldiers. The vast majority of these dead and wounded soldiers are "ground pounders".

In summation, I think its important to remember that so much of the sacrifice we in the military are commended for is taken on by a very small number of our ranks. As an Infantryman I was part of that minority, but I still feel guilty whenever someone trys to praise me. I know plenty of guys that went through A LOT more and gave up A LOT more than I did. I know that most of the credit coming my way is just misdirected away from those guys that are struggling in their wheel chairs or had the next 60 years of a happy fruitful life snuffed out.

I scored a 90 something on the ASVAB, had no waivers, and could easily pass every service's PFT. I joined the Infantry because that's what I wanted to do, not because the Air Force wouldn't take me. I don't know a single grunt that wanted to be some other MOS. Maybe some did, but they didn't ever admit to it, which is telling in itself.

 

Sometimes it may seem hard to appreciate the Air Force IgnoranceIsBliss, but try to see their point of view and remember, those could be the guys that save your life one day.

Herkdriver,

I met a few smart infantry guys. You need smart people in the infantry. You don't always meet the best and brightest in the infantry, but smart people are definitely needed in the infantry and the infantry does have a few smart people. Personally, I think it's better to outsmart rather than outfight the enemy and the guys on the ground need some smart people. Most wars are won by the intellect.

As far as hero talk. I prefer not to be a hero. The graveyard is full of heroes.

 

I certainly do not consider airlift in Afghanistan/Iraq as anything "heroic"..or on the level of risk equivalent to what the ground combat arms endure on a daily basis.

Statistically, 95% of the casualties in these conflicts have been to the guys on
the grounds holding the rifles, on foot or in vehicles, it's a constant threat...

My only point was, that that's what some choose to do....they want to be in the middle
of the fray with that rifle looking for trouble and not running away when they find it...

Someone chooses to be on a submarine or on a Navy boat, they are still day in and day out
serving this Nation...I don't think their service should be so easily dismissed.

In fact the Navy itself, it's mere presence, prevents conflicts through power projection..by
doing their jobs, all of us are spared having to go to war.

Modern conflict today definetly places the burden on the young man with the rifle...
either a Marine or a Soldier...the majority of the rest of us support them as they are
the tip of the spear...

I'm certainly not trying to play down their sacrifices, just the condescending nature
at times makes me think they are playing down ours...

You don't have to sleep in a hole in the ground to serve honorably.

Considering that less than 1% of the total U.S. population even serves, we veterans
should appreciate one another's service all the more...

Though submarine warfare has played no part in our current conflicts I still appreciate
what those submariners do on a daily basis, leaving family and friends behind
to silently lurk in the World's oceans giving America a geo-political advantage.

anyway...let's all try to get along shall we, we're all on the same team...

 

If that's what you want...

...then you might want to ease up on the derogatory insinuations.

 

My Dad was infantry, and I considered him a smart guy...he told me not to go infantry.
I kid, but he did steer me away from that profession.

True story on that, he was a rifleman in WWII...God rest his soul.

Every Christmas Eve, he'd take me outside at around 2300....
he'd say it was around this time of night and on this very night...so many years
ago...our Sergeant blew a whistle and we all marched up a snowy hill in Belgium
facing the German offensive in the Ardennes in '44.
The guy to the left of me went down, the guy to the right of me went down....
but I'm here today. Never forget the sacrifices that they made so that you don't
have to.

For every young man that picks up a rifle, climbs in a tank or man's an artillery piece...
another young man doesn't have to.

Volunteer seems to be working and it's because young men like Ignorance is Bliss are
willing to do that.

Even a dumb freight jockey like me appreciates that reality...

 

The point I was making is we all wear the flag, we all run the risk. You know that every day you wake up. This could be the day Ali Baba ******* gets lucky, whether with his rifle, his IED, his mortar, his rocket, his RPG, or his Misgah 2.

This is primarily a ground pounder's fight; there is no arguing that. I'm not taking anything from the burden carried by the infantry or Marines. Their sacrifice is great. I have had the honor of beginning the journey home for far too many since this conflict began. Moments I cannot and shall not forget.

That doesn't mean Air Force / Navy / Coasties are any less courageous under fire when it happens. Or that we would shrink from a fight because of (*)(*)(*)(*)ty billeting or bad food or crappy weather or hostile living environment or low per diem. Frankly, to suggest that tells me this guy is either very young, very new to the military or a poser. No one who has spent any time overseas and sees something besides their compound and their personal part of the war could miss that there are other services and OGAs all over both theatres.

And I don't like the numbers game when it comes to casualties, because sooner or later it becomes a penis measuring contest and the true cost gets lost. You stay in this business long enough, you're going to lose friends to it. Plain and simple.

Many of the sharpest folks I know are in the Army . . . but I don't deal with Big Green very much, so I'm probably not the best person to ask about their average intelligence. The few dealings I have had left me with a pretty bad impression of how Big Green does business, though I suppose it works, since we still win our wars. And, truth be told, I doubt I'd last long working in Big Blue for the same reason. Too much focus on toeing the line, fitness tests and EPR/OPR bullets and not enough on getting the job done.

Concur with this.

 

I never said anything unappreciative of the Air Force. I don't know where you got that idea from.

I only implied that the Air Force and support guys should appreciate how much more miserable, dangerous, and damaging slugging it out on the ground can be.

I'm glad you met "a few smart Infantry guys" and that the guys on the ground need "some smart people." Your entire last paragraph is demeaning. Many of the guys I met in the Infantry had an entirely different kind of intellect that most academic types don't posess.

I found it very humbling when someone who probably couldn't even spell calculus could see a weapon once and assemble and disassemble it in a minute, or outsmart some Officer from the Naval Academy in a think on your feet tactical situation. There are a lot of intangibles in "intelligence" that snobby intellectuals aren't smart enough to see. A veteran ODA team has a combination of technical profficency, self-awareness, and cool-headed thinking that an Army of MIT engineers could only dream of having.

 

This is my point. It very rarely happens for the people you mentioned....at least when compared to the ground pounders. I won't sit by and ignore that. I won't pretend that everyone in the military fights and dies equally. I'll say that everyone has an important role, and that when the time comes can and will put their lives on the line. However, we can't ignore that some people never even get to sniff that time while others live it day in and day out for months. This isn't about bragging rights or "dick measuring". Anyone who's done or seen anything doesn't go walking around talking about it.

Go out an ask a Infantrymen in Afghanistan just back from a firefight if he thinks everyone takes risks equally. He'll think back to the week he spent on the massive base with the McDonalds and Showers, then look around at the tiny little hovel that makes up his Patrol Base and maybe the few missing billets in his Platoon and make a decision. I know its nice and easy to say everyone sacrifices the same; But deep down at the end of the day we all know they don't.

This isn't a service debate. Every service has had it's turn at the grinder. No Infantryman anywhere could put his nose up at the aircrew who made Europe burn or the Submariners who crushed Japan's Merchant Fleet.

 

Some women are more "manly" than some men. Perhaps there should be a testosterone test. If a woman exceeds a certain level, let them fight.

 

Talon probably crews on an aircraft that is older than he is...
the center wing box structures on those aging MC-130E's aren't in the best
condition. That's a little different than being a shoe clerk making powerpoint
presentations all day behind a desk.

 

I never said anything personally about Talon. Where did you infer that I did?