Your particular "god" doesn't exist, and here's a way to test that.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by FreedomSeeker, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    A chimpanzee can prove he exists, but the magic sugar-daddy can't (not in 4.5 billion years of earth's existence)! Yes, the all-powerful "god" is less powerful than Bonzo. Therefore, why not just worship a chimpanzee, instead, if you are insecure enough to need something to "worship".

    The chimp is clearly a better role model regarding morality, since the chimp likely won't:
    1. treat women worse than men (and not have the moral backbone to bring forward a version of the texts that don't include those),
    2. give his children a book ("it's the best book of all time") that says to kill gays - yes I said KILL,
    3. kill virtually every living thing, including innocent animals, in the supposed "flood" (and have followers today incredibly JUSTIFY it),
    4. teach utter hatred for Jews/Hindus, etc.,
    5. have sex with an under-aged chimp (are you listening Mohammad) and have his followers - incredibly - DEFEND that action,
    6. approve of slavery like "Jesus" did (in 3 places in the Bible) - and never explicitly speak out against it (incredible),
    7. LOOK FORWARD to the "end of the world" (all the, for example, Buddhists, die then),
    8. etc. (if it was really a "god", there wouldn't be an "etc." compared to a chimp, now would there?)

    The chimp will also be a better parent, because his kids won't think less of him because he can't answer the simple question "well, ok, mommy, well then where did Noah get the KANGAROOS and POLAR BEARS from?"

    The chimp will answer your prayers at exactly the same rate. Seriously, try that out. On even number days pray to your particular "god", then on odd numbered days pray to a chimp, and see which of your prayers get answered the most. But don't forget to curse your "god" for all the prayers (99%) that he does NOT answer. Prayers likely don't get answered because he was busy that day giving innocent fetuses AIDS in Africa, or was busy causing innocent children to be born with horrific birth defects, or busy killing over 130,000 people in the Aceh tsunami - w/out even having the decency to warn them enough so they didn't die.

    Try this test out and let us know how it went.
     
  2. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Meta studies have shown that prayer doesn't work.
     
  3. DarkDaimon

    DarkDaimon Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? Do you really think any of these arguments are going to convince a theist that they are wrong? Oh, and FYI, comparing someone's deity to a chimpanzee isn't going to win you any points.
     
  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Come on, mate, you're being unfair.

    The chimp can answer your prayers for bananas.
     
  5. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    But it's true, praying to the chimp will be just as effective as praying to Jesus (although like Swensson says, the chimp could even answer MORE prayers than Jesus - such as if you are feeling low on potassium.) You should try it out, and see for yourself that your prayers are equally effective, since one doesn't even exist. At least the chimp exists. Jesus, and Allah, and Thor, and Santa are all equally effective at proving that they exist. If Jesus was moral, he'd make it his top priority to simply prove that he even EXISTS. The chimp has him beat there, however. But Jesus is immoral, so he's fine with moral, well-intentioned non-Christians burning FOREVER, just because he's so pathetic at simply doing something that a chimp can easily do (prove his existence.)
    HE DOESN'T EXIST, or else he's too immoral to prove he exists, thereby keeping billions of people from "hell".

    I wonder if HITLER, if he was in Jesus' shoes, would prove he exists. I bet he would. So Hitler would then be more moral than Jesus. See, having to torture people forever, when there's a simple solution for an "all-powerful" and "all-loving" god (ie prove he exists to non-believers), is IMMORAL. He approved of slavery too, so he's off-the-charts immoral. Or he just doesn't exist...which is more believable?

    You don't believe in Zeus, or Thor, or Allah, or the many Hindu gods, so, for the same reasons, don't believe in Jesus.
     
  6. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    "I'll show this idiot FreedomSeeker s/he's wrong, I'll simply prove my god exists(!), because FreedomSeeker can obviously prove a dang monkey exists, ok so here goes...well, er...um.....well, uh.....hmmmmm, proving my god even EXISTS (much less is the one true god out of tens of thousands) is harder than I thought, but I CAN prove a chimp exists so maybe my god doesn't even exist....but I KNOW my "god" exists because one morally-bankrupt book in world history SAYS so!"

    1000 years from now Jesus will be thought of in the same way as Zeus and Thor. The world will be better for that, since the FEAR that Jesus teaches will disappear. Teaching fear is immoral.
     
  7. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Like that Atheists.org billboard says: Jesus is useless

    Actually I'm wrong: Jesus is great at filling the collection plate, what with the whole burn in "hell" threat. Sounds like a "shake-down" to me.
     
  8. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Ok, then please enlighten us as to where Noah got the kangaroos and Polar Bears from? If you're less than scientifically convincing, then we'll conclude it's a FRAUD...and that the entire book is suspect, and needs to be gone over verse by verse using science, reason, critical thinking and common sense, to discern what the real truth is.
     
  9. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    If a person believes in God why should he have to pray to him? Don't people believe in God's will? Praying to God is saying that God's plan sucks and that you can change his mind by whining for something different. That seems to run counter to the idea that God's will will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. Prayer is saying that you want your will to be done. Think about all of the trillions of prayers were people have asked for their own wills to be done. Each one of those prayers is a rebuke to the believer's favorite deity.
     
  10. Objectivism

    Objectivism New Member

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    if religion didn't exist, what would weak-minded people do?

    they'd make one up
     
  11. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    OK, I'll bite. First...

    FROM WHEREVER THEY LIVED BEFORE THE FLOOD. The land and the animals have moved since then.

    Here is the fact. Everybody dies. That is fear. But hope is that, when you die, you won't just wink out or suffer forever, but there is a possibility at salvation and resurrection, if you only treat your neighboor as yourself, and love the God who made you. Or, that could just be the best story they could come up with to deal with the fear- the certain knowledge- of death. But the story copes with that fear, either way.
     
  12. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Words of wisdom.
     
  13. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    I bet you would NOT BET someone that Australia (kangaroos) is 6000 years old or less, now would you? It must be for your theory to be true. If money was actually on the line, you'd run to the hills. Do you believe that Australia (as a separate continent from Noah's Middle East, that is), is 6000 years old or less!?

    I'd love to see other forum members come to your (insane...sorry) defense.

    Admit it, the Bible is wrong in many many places...way way less than the writings of modern Secular Humanism. But to do that opens Pandora's Box, and you religionists don't want to have to actually think about stuff...or am I wrong? Isn't religion just intellectual cowardice? But there is an alternative to this mental laziness....but it takes courage that most don't have.
     
  14. Vicariously I

    Vicariously I Well-Known Member

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    Freedomseeker your approach suggests two things. Either you are the antithesis of Heretic (meaning you are nothing but a troll trying to defile the ranks of true atheists by posing as one and being overly dramatic) or you really are not yet equipped with the ability to have this discussion. The later is not an intellectual insult but rather an observation that you are somehow driven by anger and are unable to control your emotions.

    “Speak when you are angry - and you'll make the best speech you'll ever regret.”

    I have been having this discussion for well over a decade now and the majority of people willing to engage you are those who are most certain they will not be swayed. Beginning the discussion with them by punching them in the face, especially when the arguements are not the strongest to begin with is not an intelligent strategy.

    Edit:

    After viewing your profile I see that my initial assumption of you possibly being the antithesis of Heretic was incorrect but the fact that you have been at this for a while and are still trying the frontal assault with such aggression still stands out to me (as an atheist) as a disappointment.
     
  15. Heretic

    Heretic Active Member

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    If you want to have a discussion of any kind about GOD, then why are you comparing GOD, an entity of ABSOLUTE POWER, to that of chimpanzees and simpler monkeys? I've dealt with a lot of atheists before. You atheists need to know and fully understand what you're attacking, GOD, before you can, even if that were impossible.

    You FIRST need to recognize a power HIGHER THAN YOUR OWN, HIGHER THAN YOUR SUBJECTIVITY. Ok, do you understand? Think of when you are a little child, even though many atheists are still at that stage mentally. Think of when you're seven years old. When you're little, and young, the world doesn't make much sense to you. You ask a lot of questions. You look to adults and your biological parents for support and help. Your parents have more POWER than you. Now imagine you grow up, and you still have a lot of questions, but no adults or parents can support or help you anymore. Nobody has answers that you need.

    Who do you go to? Who do you SEEK??? You seek HIM, a HIGHER POWER THAN YOURSELF, because you are MORTAL and FINITE and WILL DIE. Atheists reject this. Atheists keep defining GOD as "spaghetti monster", "HER", "chimpanzee", "Hitler". Are you guys SERIOUS?????? Is that how you guys are trying to define GOD??????

    My work is done for me, I don't have to touch atheists, or really put in much effort, to make you guys look foolish. You should start to understand and recognize GOD, FIRST, by understanding there are more POWERFUL entities in the universe, than you, more WISE AND INTELLIGENT, than you, and such an entity and being as GOD, is OBJECTIVE. Ok, HE does not need YOUR atheist approval to exist. Let me repeat that. HE DOES NOT NEED YOUR ATHEIST APPROVAL TO EXIST!!!!

    Objectivity, you atheists really need to learn this word. If you atheists are going to compare GOD, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, HIGHEST POSSIBLE POWER OF ALL, with chimpanzees, then.....GOD HELP YOU! You're going to need it in life, if "Spaghetti Monster" is your moral authority, somebody you look up to, somebody who INSPIRES you to a full life and course of action......................you're going to need a LOT of help.
     
  16. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say anything about age, and I'm not proposing any theory. I merely gave a simple, obvious answer to what you put forth as some sort of unanswerable question. All I'm saying is that at least 2 kangaroos may have lived somewhere other than Australia before the flood (hell, maybe even in a zoo). And that they ended up in Australia afterwards. Or the landmass may have moved. Actually a longer Earth age would be better for that idea: more continental drift. As evolutionists love to point out, alot of unlikely stuff can happen over a long period of time, and a migration or other relocation of animals isn't nearly as unlikely as, say, the evolutionary origin of DNA.
     
  17. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Freedomseeker,

    Actually, it occurred to me that my explanation for kangaroos and such was probably too reasonable. This is a bible story, after all, and you are asking us to fill in the gaps. The bible doesn't say anything about kangaroos or polar bears, so you are essentially asking us to make something up. OK, for my creative writing assignment, if you don't like what I've presented so far, how about this: when Noah sent out the call of the beastmaster to summon the animals to his location, those land animals across oceans rode on or in whales, a la Jonah. OR a whirlwind picked them up and transported them, a la Elijah. OR angels flew them. Or God just strait teleported their asses. Or God just created some new ones right there on the spot. See, this God character, he can do whatever he wants, and what he usually chooses to do is whatever will baffle people the most. So making your stand against a bible story based on the logistics of animal locations is ridiculous, as if that is going to just shut the story down. If UPS could do it, it is not going to be beyond the capabilities of the creator of the universe.
     
  18. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    That bit there certainly is a good assessment of why people have gods: the need for a father figure, even in adult life. That doesn't make the father figure- (or mother figure-) gods that people invent real. All you've done is identify a feature - one we might call a flaw - in the human psyche.
     
  19. DarkDaimon

    DarkDaimon Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever heard of the saying "Don't assume, it makes an ASS out of U and ME"? Might want to take that one to heart or at least look at someone's post history before you assume they are a theist.

    For the record, my post had nothing to do with whether you were right or not. What I was trying to say is that your approach is completely wrong. If you are trying to convince people to go against what they believe in, the last thing you want to do is belittle that belief. Did you become an atheist because you were ridiculed into it? I wasn't. I don't know of anyone who became an atheist because they were ridiculed. In fact, I would have no respect for someone who changed their beliefs because of ridicule.

    This was C.S. Lewis's problem. He was too busy insulting atheists to really make a good case for his beliefs so he ended up just "preaching to the choir".

    Please do yourself a favor and refrain from insulting other's beliefs. That is not to say you can't point out logical inconsistencies in their beliefs, just that it is non-productive to be insulting about it. Use cool logic, not inflammatory rhetoric.
     
  20. Anobsitar

    Anobsitar Banned

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    A chimpanzee is not able to prove his own existance because he's not able to doubt about his own existance. ... And existance means to be in interaction with other parts of the universe, isn't it? In this case god is since 13.7 billion years in interaction with the whole universe - and he became in Jesus Christ even a part of his own creation. You can be sure god knows everything and more than you are able to imagine.

    allmighty - this means he's a little more mighty than only endless mighty - a little more powerfull than only endlesss powerfull.

    Bonzo would not try to crucify god.

    Let me guess: because Christians are stupid idiots while your are nearly a superintelligent alien?

    Just today I studied a little what had happened some years ago in Germany. I saw a picture of a statue of Otto I. and his wife Editha sitting on thrones. I was a little angry to see that the throne of his wife was a little smaller than the throne of emperor Otto - but suddenly I saw that parts of her throne were broken. I took a more serios look on this problem now. Indeed both thrones had the same size and were mirrored - so the thrones were indeed the same throne - with a left and right side only - separated - but only one. Emperor Otto and his wife Editha were in perfect harmony as if they would had been one human being only. I had to smile.

    I stopped to smile now.

    Why should I hate my jewish ancestors? Why should I hate Indians? What for heavens sake are you speaking about?

    Tell me something else. Who teached you your hate against Christians and why are you attacking Christians? What's the background of your actions?

    http://youtu.be/XLKJ6QXFLUA
     
  21. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Please provide proof of these animals roaming around Noah's backyard.
     
  22. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    There is no reason that I should have to do that. See post #17.
     
  23. septimine

    septimine New Member

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    You do realize that chimps are worse than people right?

    Chimps will kill all babies in a troop when they take over. They do it to bring the mothers back into heat so they can rape them and have babies with their DNA. Chimps are actually cannabals at times -- they will kill and eat chimps that are either the children of chimps in their own troop who are low enough to "not count" on the chimp social ladder, or the members of another troop. Go read something other than Curious George.
     
  24. Pasithea

    Pasithea Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    I prefer James Randi's argument against proving a negative in regards to the existence of a deity(ies).

    [video=youtube;qWJTUAezxAI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWJTUAezxAI[/video]
     
  25. Anobsitar

    Anobsitar Banned

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    The most views on the behavior of high intelligent wild animals - like also wolves for example - is wrong. We have to watch animals in their own free world - not in our prisoned world with a lack of natural ressources - to get serios results. We are often bringing our own psychological sicknesses in the lifeforms of high-intelligent animals. Perhaps your view on the behavior of Chimps is a view on the results of the behavior of human beings. What you can see here is perhaps nothing else than the result of our own slave-slaveholder mentalities. Perhaps it's a lack of our own positive emotions.

    http://youtu.be/0WLedpz9a40
     

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