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Thread: When is an abortion NOT an abortion? Focusing on two weeks post conception

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowerbird View Post
    Are you aware that up to 50% of fertilised eggs do not implant?

    Perhaps you would like every woman to be on fertility treatment "just in case"
    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/health/64...e-breakthrough

    We are not talking about "babies" here but something that looks like this

    Embyro Implantation - YouTube
    Sweetheart, you wanted an honest debate on this, I gave you one. You obviously can't handle a real discussion on the issue b/c your response was pathetic.


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    In fact, it took 5 short comments for your thread to turn into the very thing you stated that you didn't want it to become.

    AND YOU ARE THE 1 WHO DID IT.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by yguy View Post
    Seeing everyone who isn't aborted eventually dies, it makes just as much sense to say "old mother nature" is the world's most prolific murderer, so I'm still missing your point.
    That life is a lottery in any event. The odds are actually against a fertilised egg successfully implanting so raising those odds - does it really constitute "abortion"?
    "Capitalise your gains and socialise your losses might make sense to a few, especially the few who wish to exploit others without repercussions but it does not make for a good or healthy society
    “There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” ― Terry Pratchett

  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bowerbird View Post
    That life is a lottery in any event.
    Brilliant.
    The odds are actually against a fertilised egg successfully implanting so raising those odds - does it really constitute "abortion"?
    Of course it does, just as if I deliberately rigged your refrigerator so it would electrocute you it would be murder, even though you could be struck by lightning regardless.

    What an idiotic question.
    If you want government to have nothing to do with marriage, and you're not a drug-addled escapee from a psych ward, kindly click here.


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  5. #15
    australia au victoria
    Location: Somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse
    Posts: 2,598

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    So imo an abortion is anything that you do to deliberately prevent a fertilized egg from going full term. The key point is that it is deliberate, ie taking a pill or getting an operation, etc, with the intention of preventing the "fetus", "fertilized egg", whatever, from maturing into a baby (up to 24 weeks, or whenever the cut off point is).

    When a fertilised egg naturally fails to mature to full term, that would be a miscarriage.

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    So imo an abortion is anything that you do to deliberately prevent a fertilized egg from going full term. The key point is that it is deliberate, ie taking a pill or getting an operation, etc, with the intention of preventing the "fetus", "fertilized egg", whatever, from maturing into a baby (up to 24 weeks, or whenever the cut off point is).

    When a fertilised egg naturally fails to mature to full term, that would be a miscarriage.
    If you prefer the course of events to follow a "natural" path, why is it OK to interfere with an UNfertilized egg? It makes no sense to interfere with nature as regards to an UNfertilized egg, but then protest that same interference with a fertilized egg. Either interfering with the natural course of events is OK or it is not. And you would have a difficult time living in today's world without interfering with the natural course of events.
    We could learn a lot from crayons:
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  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    So imo an abortion is anything that you do to deliberately prevent a fertilized egg from going full term. The key point is that it is deliberate, ie taking a pill or getting an operation, etc, with the intention of preventing the "fetus", "fertilized egg", whatever, from maturing into a baby (up to 24 weeks, or whenever the cut off point is).

    When a fertilised egg naturally fails to mature to full term, that would be a miscarriage.
    No, with a failure to initially IMPLANT it is considered to have simply been a failed attempt at pregnancy.

    Traditionally, doctors have measured pregnancy from a number of convenient points, including the day of last menstruation, ovulation, fertilization, implantation and chemical detection.[citation needed] This has led to some confusion about the precise length of human pregnancy, as each measuring point yields a different figure.[citation needed]
    At its 2004 Annual Meeting, The American Medical Association passed a resolution in favor of making "Plan B" emergency contraception available over-the-counter, and one of the claims in the resolution was that hormonal contraception that may affect implantation "cannot terminate an established pregnancy."[1]
    Similarly, the British Medical Association has defined an "established pregnancy" as beginning at implantation.[2] The legal definition in the United Kingdom is not clear.[3] Other definitions exist. The American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary defines "pregnancy" as "from conception until birth."[4] Definitions like this may add to a lay person's confusion, as "conception" in a medical context is defined as implantation [5] but in lay terms may mean either fertilization or implantation.[6] However, some medical professionals who oppose birth control,[7] including prominent member of Focus on the Family Walter Larimore, have argued that the medical definition of conception should include fertilization.[8]
    Finally, the standard historical method of counting the duration of pregnancy begins from the last menstruation and this remains common with doctors, hospitals, and medical companies.[9] This system is convenient because it is easy to determine when the last menstrual period was, while both fertilization and implantation occur out of sight. An interesting consequence is that the dating of pregnancy measured this way begins two weeks before ovulation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginni...cy_controversy
    Last edited by Bowerbird; Nov 27 2011 at 12:12 PM.
    "Capitalise your gains and socialise your losses might make sense to a few, especially the few who wish to exploit others without repercussions but it does not make for a good or healthy society
    “There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” ― Terry Pratchett

  8. #18
    australia au victoria
    Location: Somewhere in the vicinity of Betelgeuse
    Posts: 2,598

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    @OKGrannie: Because an unfertilised egg isn't a fetus?

    I don't really understand what you're saying, can you please rephrase.

    @Bowerbird: Ok... but I don't understand the relevance. I didn't use "pregnancy" as a measure of abortion.

    Anyway I've decided miscarriage is not the right for what I mean. And actually I'm not sure that there is a word to describe it. The difference between a fertilised egg naturally failing to implant and the woman taking action to deliberately prevent it from implanting. Misscarriage is only after a certain amount of weeks apparently.

    But yes. IMO abortion is anything you deliberately with intention of preventing a fertilized egg (fetus, or whatever) from going full term. Whether or not is has already implanted I consider irrelevant.

    So yeah I think that if the pill prevents a fertilised egg from implanting then that was an abortion.

    It is the INTENTION that defines abortion imo.

    I'm pro-choice btw.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    @OKGrannie: Because an unfertilised egg isn't a fetus?

    I don't really understand what you're saying, can you please rephrase.

    @Bowerbird: Ok... but I don't understand the relevance. I didn't use "pregnancy" as a measure of abortion.

    Anyway I've decided miscarriage is not the right for what I mean. And actually I'm not sure that there is a word to describe it. The difference between a fertilised egg naturally failing to implant and the woman taking action to deliberately prevent it from implanting. Misscarriage is only after a certain amount of weeks apparently.

    But yes. IMO abortion is anything you deliberately with intention of preventing a fertilized egg (fetus, or whatever) from going full term. Whether or not is has already implanted I consider irrelevant.

    So yeah I think that if the pill prevents a fertilised egg from implanting then that was an abortion.

    It is the INTENTION that defines abortion imo.

    I'm pro-choice btw.
    As I have stated I actually, personally see no difference in deliberate intention to prevent implantation and natural failure to do so. Particularly since we have little or no idea of what factors truly influence early "abortion" like this. (and in medicine the term abortion is used to define all pregnancy losses whether natural or induced) Even ingestion of Pawpaw has been linked to miscarriage and certainly there is suspicion in relation to factors such as ingestion of large qualities of alcohol and coffee (although the last could be because the woman is jiggling up and down so are she shakes it free). We do not know for sure what the natural failure to implant rate is and many of the figures are based on fertility clinics where failure to implant occurs 60% of the time
    "Capitalise your gains and socialise your losses might make sense to a few, especially the few who wish to exploit others without repercussions but it does not make for a good or healthy society
    “There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” ― Terry Pratchett

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bowerbird View Post
    As I have stated I actually, personally see no difference in deliberate intention to prevent implantation and natural failure to do so. Particularly since we have little or no idea of what factors truly influence early "abortion" like this. (and in medicine the term abortion is used to define all pregnancy losses whether natural or induced) Even ingestion of Pawpaw has been linked to miscarriage and certainly there is suspicion in relation to factors such as ingestion of large qualities of alcohol and coffee (although the last could be because the woman is jiggling up and down so are she shakes it free). We do not know for sure what the natural failure to implant rate is and many of the figures are based on fertility clinics where failure to implant occurs 60% of the time
    Huh?

    Your serious?

    You don't see a difference b/w allowing nature to take its course and someone methodically trying to kill their baby? Your arguments don't make any sense.

    Doesn't matter if someone is taking something that by happen chance causes an abortion unknowingly, not to mention unwillingly. I am pretty sure the woman wasn't taking it to cause an abortion. That is totally different then someone who intentionally aborts their baby for the sole purpose of aborting their baby. If you can't see the difference there then this is a hopeless conversation.

    And providing stats on implantation is irrelevant, unless your trying to use it to justify aborting your baby. Which is just twisted by itself. It doesn't matter if 90% don't implant, your taking an outside substance to make sure the baby doesn't implant. So what is the point of the stat numbers you keep giving?......lol.

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