This is an auxiliary branch of my main thread: "most macho soldiers/warriors of all time"? Many units fought amazingly in WWII, and it's tough to pin down a specific unit, as many had different roles and different adversaries. Some units did well one battle, and did poorly in another. The US Marines in the Pacific did awesome at Iwo Jima and Okinawa, not to mention others like Tara(w,u)a. The 1st Infantry division was great in Normandy. As well the 82nd and 101st. Germany finer varsity units were great, and the Heer had some of the best. The SS fielded great ones The UK had great units. Russian had great shock armies. Some of the options are so close to ability of each other I'm not voting.
The Russians had to fight the Germans many times with no weapons or ammo. They lacked food, clothing, and supplies of all kinds until America sent them help through the Murmansk Convoy and even that wan't nearly enough. But nobody had it worse in the early days of WWII than the US Marines. They had to fight the Japanese Army and Navy who were very well supplied and positioned. Our Marines were sent out there with old surplus weapons from WWI and not nearly enough ammo. They didn't have enough food and many times they didn't even have drinking water. They didn't have medicine or decent medical centers and it took forever to get them supplies because the Japs sunk our supply ships almost as fast as we could send them over in the early part of the war. The Marines had to fight the Japs one island at a time and it was the worst fighting of the whole war. The Japs believed they were fighting a holy war for their Emperor and so they almost always fought to the death because surrender was dishonorable. The fighting in the Pacific made the war in western Europe look like a picnic by comparison. I'm glad we dropped two atomic bombs on Japan and that the Japs finally came to their senses and gave up. But nobody had it worse than the US Marines.
Certainly if we are to follow Sun Tzu's time tested advice, never under-estimate your enemy. It could be said both the Allies and Axis had men and women dedicated to soldiering...however the best? Audie Murphy! All 125 lbs. of him. The most decorated soldier to ever wear the uniform of the U.S. Army. It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. Let's not forget about the battered bastards of Bastogne. The 101st Airborne among others.
Its tough to say because so much success and failure involved much more than the actual unit, division, brigade or army. Supplies, logistics etc. American soldiers tended to come from better backgrounds, physically and medically than many of the other combatants such as the Russians or Japanese. After about 1943, we had better gear as well. The MI Garand was a huge advantage over the bolt action Mauser 98 and the Japanese Arisaka rifles. With the introduction of the Mustang, the Corsair, the Thunderbolt etc, the USA had air superiority in both theaters. That being said, the most effective fighting force might be one many don't consider since their actions in WWII was a side show that many don't even remember as part of the war. That was the Finnish opposition to the USSR. Finnish casualty ratios inflicted on the Russians were probably the most lopsided in the war other than perhaps the Japanese incursions against poorly or not armed Chinese areas. The Finns were fighting one of the biggest armies in the world and they were quite successful.
The European theater was always the area where the U.S. played a smaller role, and the western front of the European theater was always the less significant front. The eastern front was the most brutal struggle of the war. It was literally a war of genocide, with the Germans fighting to colonize eastern Europe to establish an aryan "lebensraum" cleansed of the original inhabitants. The Russian people fought for their very survival, and were only able to win due to superior size and numbers, and by accepting hugely disproportionate casualties. As terrible as it is, the facts seem to say that the Germans were best man-for man. Well, just look at how many enemies they held out against. Russia, Britain, the U.S. Not to mention all the territory they occupied in other places like France. They only lost due to being incredibly outnumbered, and even then held out for a long time.
Americans / British Australian Germans and much farther down ... Japanese Russians (Stalin was the worst commander in WW2) .
They're certainly in the running. Some who never get mentioned are the Indian engineer battalions in the Italian campaign on the 'right' side of the peninsula under Alexander, and other Indian units under William Slim conducting operations over the Hump in Asia and Burma. Slim was one of the best Generals of the war, if not the best. Not a lot of journalists covering that theater, so many have never heard of him nor was in the papers every week.
I'd say per unit it would be the Waffen SS, they reinvented the battlefield, they pioneered rapid response with small unit autonomy through the integration of superior training and technology. Most will never give them their due because of the SS tag. On the larger level you have too many to list, and far too many instances in which a certain division or even company shone as much to circumstance as to anything else. Very few of what would be considered the elites of both sides ever faced each other in their prime. As to individual soldiers, there is no answer. Each nation produced heroic soldiers, even the losers, though they'll never be remembered...
Hands down, the Germans were brilliant soldiers. They were disciplined, effective and an inspiration. Yes, they were on the wrong side of history, but we should not let this detract from their excellence.
Onnnnnne oh onnnnnne Patch on my shoulder! - - - Updated - - - They went in phases. Half way through the war they were far less well trained.
I would say the sailers and airmen of the U.S. Navy following Pearl Harbor. Midway was a thing of beauty.
Thanks for supplementing your with "Best Soldiers....." I still remember some of the more crude, philosophical bellowing of various US Army D.I.s (Drill Instructors/Sergeants) as to what makes a good soldier in the late 1960s when I was stationed at Ft. Benning, GA. Later, after serving in S.E. Asia & other units, the last Unit to which I was assigned was the 82nd Airborne Div. While I served only just under 3 years, I would say that the "Best" soldiers are not always those with the most "kills" but those who could continue to work well with others especially under the most adverse conditions, exhibit humanity to civilians & captured adversaries but do the hardest part of the job well when absolutely necessary & do so without hesitation to ensure the safety of "co-workers" / fellow soldiers & successful completion of the mission / objective. I can understand why you didn't vote because of the many variables & distorted prejudices that make a fair comparison impossible especially for Americans who have been saturated with so many distorted "History" accounts, mono-dimentional, “Spielberg-esque” depictions of the European Theater & stereotypic demonizations of the "Japs" & "Krauts". The ability to fight on no matter how grim the situation is one of the traits that distinguishes the “Best Soldiers”. American forces had the enormous luxury of knowing that everything at home was safe & intact. Would they have fought so well, far away, if they had the demoralizing knowledge that their homes were destroyed, their families killed, towns & cities incinerated? I know less about the Pacific Theater than the European Theater because I lived, worked & studied in Germany where I got to know many German WW 2 veterans. Based on their stories, more recently released historical realities, the German fighting man was certainly no more vicious & committed no more cruelties than any of the Allies who were responsible for some of the most barbaric atrocities near the end and just after European hostilities. Of the many eyewitness accounts I recall over the decades was that of a “White” (vs Red) Russian woman who was of the aristocracy but lost her family, home etc overnight to the “Red” Russians. She was in the hands of almost all participating Armies but because she spoke 7 - 10 languages, was valued as a translator. She testified that of the English, American, Russian, French & German captors that she was treated with the most kindness & respect by the German Waffen SS troops some of whom even washed her clothing since her former family had servants to do everything for her. Her story was not unlike others I have heard by individuals captured by German forces whose only cruelty was not having enough food, medicine & other resources to render comfort. This contrasts sharply with Eisenhower's gratuitous extermination of over 1 million German POWs via starvation & withholding ample medical supplies & facilities [2] There were / are many assessments of Waffen SS effectiveness under adversity but few well publicized stories of their capacity for demonstrating humanity. The most highly publicized renditions of the differeing Armies are replete with tales of German cruelty, however, the Allied "carpet bombing" of purely civilian targets[1] in a vain attempt to demoralize the German military men along with Eisenhower's Death Camp[2] & infamous, slow murder of over 1 million German POWS & Post War, Zionist run "holocaust" in Poland[3] are just a few enormities rank at least as horrific as anything done by the Germans. George Orwell once wrote: “Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.” The distorted picture that so many Americans of the European Theater's simply underscores the veracity of that variation of "The Victors write the History Books". Regrettably, it has been primarily the fictional Allied depictions of WW 2’s Soldiers that have been indelibly imprinted into most American minds after decades of seeing TV & Movie images & hearing hyperbolic accounts of sadistic & robotic “Japs” & “Krauts” With rare exceptions, few Americans consider that “they” too were human beings much like us who were trained & sent to do not only the nastiest of “jobs” but also defending destroyed homes &, in many cases, incinerated or homeless families. While I don’t feel I can speak as knowledgeably about the Pacific Theater, I felt that, with the universal exceptions, it was the German soldiers / Waffen SS that still fought with resourcefulness, tenacity & even humanity while most frequently outnumbered, without Air Support, adequate supplies or secure homes & families with which to return. It seems important to remember that then, as today, there is no nationality, race religion or ethnic group that is exclusively “Good” or “Evil”. [1] “Bombing of Dresden in World War II” http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II With accounts of up to 350,000 victims, the bombing of Dresden would be the single most devastating war crime[2] atrocity of World War II. It is also known as The Dresden Holocaust. Between October 7, 1944 and April 17, 1945 Dresden was bombed by an estimated 2,500 bombers. During the evening of February 13 an 14, 1945, Dresden was attacked by 772 English and 311 American bombers. Surprisingly, the Luftwaffe base in Klotzsche eight kilometers from the city was not hit by a single bomb. In February 1945, the city’s population had temporarily been inflated by a huge influx of German refugees, perhaps up to 350,000, fleeing the Soviet advance sixty miles away to the east. The Allied commanders studied aerial photographs of German cities and specifically targeted areas of heavy residential populations. His aim, said Harris, was to make the ‘rubble bounce’ not just in Dresden but in every German city. The Allies knew that a bomb shelter or a cellar would only provide protection for about three hours before becoming unbearably hot and so forcing the civilians back outside. Thus a second wave of bombs was dropped precisely three hours after the first batch – again to maximise the number of casualties. Many bombs were adapted so that they would explode hours after falling – the idea to cause maximum casualties against civilians who were trying to remove the devices. Although initially enthusiastic about the bombing raids, Churchill tried to distance himself and, following Dresden, questioned Harris’s methods of ‘bombing German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror … Bomber Harris (also known as "Butcher" Harris within the RAF) responded angrily that the attacks had been necessary in order to hasten the German surrender and diminish further allied casualties.”CONTINUED [2] “Eisenhower’s Holocaust: His Slaughter Of 1.7 Million(*)Germans!” https://socioecohistory.wordpress.c...locaust-his-slaughter-of-1-7-million-germans/ [2] “Eisenhower's Slaughter Of 1.7 Million Germans” http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/history/5223/Eisenhower-s-Slaughter-Of-1-7-Million-Germans EXCERPT “The book, OTHER LOSSES, found its way into the hands of a Canadian news reporter, Peter Worthington, of the OTTAWA SUN. He did his own research through contacts he had in Canada, and reported in his column on September 12,1989 the following, in part: "...it is hard to escape the conclusion that Dwight Eisenhower was a war criminal of epic proportions. His (DEF) policy killed more Germans in peace than were killed in the European Theater." CONTINUED [3] “An Eye for an Eye” (Review) http://www.amazon.com/An-Eye-Sought-Revenge-Holocaust/dp/0967569109 EXCERPT OF REVIEW: It became a best-seller in Europe but was so shunned in America that it also became, in the words of New York Magazine, "The Book They Dare Not Review." Since then, both 60 Minutes and The New York Times have corroborated what Sack wrote: that at the end of World War II, thousands of Jews sought revenge for the Holocaust. They set up 1,255 concentration camps for German civilians -- German men, women, children and babies. There they beat, whipped, tortured and murdered the Germans.”CONTINUED
I was going to say Russia due to the simply unprecedented loss of life. Went with the SS instead. Pure quality over quantity.
The marines as an attacking unit/force were on par if not better than the SS. Iwo Jima and Okinawa were legendary, and it was the army that got holed up and had to call in the marines on Okinawa. They also did not have the tanks and training as the SS but if you put them on a battle field with the SS on open terrain they would put up a tough but vain fight. Take away their tanks and they will issues.
The 101st fought great against them at Bastogne. Also some of the Heer units in 42' 43' an 44' were also great.
The SS (badder units and good ones that were ill supplied of supplies) got into some trouble with the 101st at Bastogne. The solidified themselves as an awesome force because of it, the 101st.
"PATCHES'? George Jones & B.B. King ~ Patches ***A MASTERPIECE*** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBloZdTqnZo _________________________________________ I''m afraid your assessments are contradicted by Allied intelligence as late as the month of April, 1945. Fighting power of the German Wehrmacht (Part I) http://ww2-weapons.com/fighting-power-of-the-wehrmacht/ EXCERPTS The soldiers of the Wehrmacht fought unabated on for many years after all real hope for the final victory in World War II was gone. Even in April 1945 the German units fought on unabated everywhere where the local tactical situation was at all bearable, so an Allied intelligence report for this month. According to calculations by the US Army the results of the battles in WW2 were only possible, when the soldiers of the Wehrmacht man for man and unit for unit were 20 to 30 percent more effective than was the British and American forces they faced.CONTINUED As I mentioned in my Post, it's difficult to make fair comparisons between an innovative, technically sophisticated society with the historical Prussian Military expertise to societies in which more individuals come from an agrarian background. For example, a few Russian soldiers (Sergeants & above) were issued semi-automatic SVT- 40 rifles but were unable to grasp their more complex gas port operation function so they preferred German Mauser Mod.98k bolt rifles while the German soldiers quickly grasped how to operate, disassemble, clean, reassemble & effectively deploy the SVT- 40 semi automatic rifle (aka the "Soviet Garand") Among the considerations for the "Best" Soldiers are factors like the ability to innovate & effectively deploy captured weaponry. Thanks,
SS were no more than psychotic thugs. Many of them...responsible for herding 1,000's of Jewish non-combatants, i.e., men, women and children - whole families - to mass burial pits and graves to be shot one by one in the presence of other victims Einsatzgruppen were Schutzstaffel (SS) paramilitary death squads of Nazi Germany that were responsible for mass killings, primarily by shooting unarmed civilians. Shooting a Jewish woman with her child in the Ukraine. Shooting Jews in Poland More Jews shot at point blank range
The Malmedy Massacre Captured American soldiers (POWs) shot dead by the SS. Regarding the Ardennes offensive...most Americans subscribe to the theory that orders had been issued at the highest level that no U.S. prisoners were to be taken and that the offensive was to be conducted in a wave of terror.
All nations militaries committed atrocities but it was a systematic practice of the Waffen SS. It's almost Memorial Day, perhaps fitting to remember those great and honorable fighting men in the Schutzstaffel aka SS. (sarcasm intended) Execution of prisoners and reprisals against civilians was a standard practice of the SS. SS atrocities related to Battle of the Bulge, DEC 44 - 34 Village men are executed by members of members of No. 8 SS Commando for Special Duties. DEC 44 - 130 Belgians (67 men, 47 women and 23 children) are executed for harboring wounded American soldiers May 1940 - 97 members of the Royal Norfolk Regiment are executed by members of the 2d SS Infantry Regiment Wormhoudt May 1940 - 85 British POWs are placed in a barn by members of No 7 CO, 2d BN SS Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler Grenades are thrown in. Survivors are pulled out 5 at a time and executed June 44 - 35 Canadian POWs executed by 12 SS Panzer Division Authie 7 June 44 - 40 Canadian POWs executed one by one by 26 SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment October 1944 - The Marzabotto massacre 770 civilians by Nazis, which took place in the territory around the small village of Marzabotto, in the mountainous area south of Bologna, Italy It was the worst massacre of civilians committed by the Waffen SS in Western Europe during the war. What else did these "honorable" soldiers do in Italy... September 8, 1943 Boves 45 mass killing by German occupation troops under Joachim Peiper Ardeatine massacre March 24, 1944 Rome 335 mass killing by German occupation troops (SD-Gestapo led by Herbert Kappler) Sant'Anna di Stazzema massacre August 12, 1944 Sant'Anna di Stazzema 560 mass killing by German occupation troops (SS Reichsfuehrer)
There's absolutely no reason to apologize because, you were not nor is there any reason to be sorry for having the integrity to have felt your were mistaken. It is both rare & refreshing to hear someone feel that they may have been mistaken on some minor morsel of minutia when so many counter with insults & deflections etc. If you don’t believe that I’m wrong at least 10 times an hour, just ask my poor wife.......a very patient woman. Anyway, I don't consider myself even close to an authority. I only lived & worked but, later studied at a University in Germany for about 3 years. During that time, I was lucky enough to talk and work with many German Veterans & Veterans' widows who shared their experiences with me, allowed me to read various diaries, note books, letters etc & obscure manuscripts of unpublished autobiographies etc. in German. Some of these "Other" accounts (like the book "Other Losses") may be presented for easy, public consumption via the "Silver Screen", TV, highly praised books etc in coming the decades. Until then, only the gullible, poorly informed & professionally deceived will demonize those they've been duped into simplistic reviling I'm sure that there are others who can speak with greater authorities on specific Units, their movements, performances etc & other details far beyond the little I know. My understanding from those documents I mentioned & other historical accounts was that toward the end of the war, for example, many kids as young as 8, [1] & elderly (70+) were given poorly made, old rifles, a handful of ammunition, were shown the very basics & sent, sacrificially, to slow the Soviet advance of near omnipresent rape, ruthless plunder & gratuitous destruction toward Berlin. So, yes, in many cases, the training of some German "Units" was scant & very young children sometimes functioned as very good soldiers. [1] “Hitler's Boy Soldiers” http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/hitleryouth/hj-boy-soldiers.htm EXCERPT “In the Ruhr area of Germany, HJ* boys practiced guerilla warfare against invading U.S. troops. In the forests, the boys stayed hidden until the tanks had passed, waiting for the foot soldiers. They would then spring up, shoot at them and throw grenades, inflicting heavy causalities, then dash away and disappear back into the forest. The Americans retaliated with furious air-attacks and leveled several villages in the surrounding area. If the boys happened to get cornered by American patrols, they often battled until the last boy was killed rather than surrender. And the boys kept getting younger. American troops reported capturing armed 8-year-olds at Aachen in Western Germany and knocking out artillery units operated entirely by boys aged twelve and under. Girls were also used now, operating the 88mm anti-aircraft guns alongside the boys.” CONTINUED *HJ = Hitlerjugend _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I doubt that you or any American viewer of popular but deceptive depictions of Hollywood’s “Krauts” as represented in “Band of Brothers”, “Saving Private Ryan” etc showed these frequent realities of who the Allies really faced as battlefield adversaries. My purpose is not in anyway way to detract from or denigrate the sacrifices made by so many men, women & children during WW 2 of any nationality but only show that there are always other sides to the distorted and incomplete history of WW 2 as well as all wars & do what little I can to discourage glamorizing the enormity of gratuitous man-made carnage. Thanks, & best wishes for a safe & enjoyable Memorial Day weekend
Just want to mention, the KLV Camps were intended and used as safe havens for city children and their mothers as well. The camps were started right away at the beginning of the war. There was no negative intention. They were a necessity to save Germany's future generation. Many historians regard KLV to be largely positive, saving many children from air raids and providing them with relative safety, good food and education in difficult times, resulting in them being less burdened by traumatic experiences than those who remained in cities during heavy bombing. Read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuations_of_children_in_Germany_during_World_War_II I have never heard of 8-year old boys having to fight the enemy. HJ only started at age 10, same with BDM.
And the Americans all ran around with halos and wings!!! http://listverse.com/2012/12/14/top-10-allied-war-crimes-of-world-war-ii/
