Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

Bush are not God. At the same time GW Bush was a President, commander in chief and husband = one GW Bush not three separate different Bushes.
God is mightier than any human or spirit, He can be the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, an Angel, burning bush of fire, a dove etc. and still be One God.

The problem is that anti Trinitarians are vieing God in their or base on their own human specs, they putting restrictions on God, "nothing is impossible with God" that is why anti Tritarians can not accept the Trinity because their view is that God is too powerful to be Three, or too mighty to lower himself to be a human.

 

God is very clear, man is imperfect and He proof that man can attain perfection, God became man to set an example to men.

God has proof His immorality and His true love and concern for men, by dying for us but because He is God immortal that can not die, He became human just for us so that in human form He will experience death and at the same time to live, eat and suffer with us and with His resurrection He ultimately show His power and love for us.

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Believe in the scripture and do not misinterpret it, yes God became human because that is what He has reveal in the Bible.

Take the word of the Bible, God can not die, and He proof that by resurrecting, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe"

Thomas, said "unless I touch him and see him I will never believe" And later after eye to eye and personally touching Jesus Christ, Thomas kneel and humbly said " My Lord and My God"

I will tell you, believe in the Bible, God has reveal Himself to us as Jesus Christ "let us create men in our image and likeness".

 

ALTER2EGO -to- KERUX:
I know you mean well, but your statements are erroneous. Yahweh is Almighty God Jehovah. Yeshua is Jesus Christ--the CREATED SON of Jehovah. The Bible makes it clear that the pre-human Jesus was created as an angel long before he appeared on earth in human form. Keep your eyes on the words in reverse color within the quoted scriptures below. Both quotations are with reference to Jesus Christ.


"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstBORN of all CREATION;.." (Colossians 1:15)


"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-BEGOTTEN son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth." (John 1:14)


The words "firstborn" and "begotten" apply to CREATED BEINGS according to any English dictionary.


DEFINITION OF "BORN": Born means having been given life.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/born


DEFINITON OF "BEGOTTEN": Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten

 

ALTER2EGO -to- KERUX:

The words "I am" when used as an identifier in the Bible are with reference to Jehovah, the Father. Those words do not apply to Jesus Christ. Below is an example of this. The occasion was when Jehovah was speaking to Moses shortly before he rescued the Israelites from slavery in Egypt.

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:14 -- King James Version)

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ALTER2EGO -to- KERUX:
That's incorrect. Yeshua (Jesus) came to fulfill the promises made by his superior, Jehovah—the one who created Jesus and the one who SENT him to earth. Jesus himself said the following, and keep your eyes on the words in bold print within the quoted scripture.

"Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: 'Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19)

The language in the above scripture clearly indicates that Jesus was not talking about himself.


I will address the last portion of your statement at a later time.

 

In which case he can also been a no good scoundrel - a cruel tyrant .and merciless SOB , right ? What makes you think he's so dam good ?

If as you say ""nothing is impossible with God" then how come he cant beat Satan ?


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As for the mathematical absurdity of 3 times 1 equals one , " the trinity " it was plagiarized/adopted from earier Pagan belief systems, one of which is this :

A "trinity" existed in the pagan Brahman religion long before Jesus Christ ever walked the earth in the flesh and ages before a Christian church existed.

A holy book entitled The Vedhas, published by the priests, established the dogma of the trimourti; trinity of God which soon developed into polytheism after time. And a host of superstitions resulted. This was supposedly 12,000 years before our time, under what was called the Brahmatma Vasichta-Richi.

In the Monastery of the Trinitarians of Madrid, the Roman Catholics pictured the pagan trinity as three heads on one body. This type of imagery derived originally came from ancient Babylon. The Dublin Catholic Layman, a very Protestant paper, described a Popish picture of the trinity:

"At the top of the picture is a representation of the Holy Trinity. We beg to speak of it with due reverence. God the Father and God the Son are represented as a Man with two heads, one body, and two arms. One of the heads is like the ordinary pictures of our Saviour. The other is the head of an old man, surmounted by a triangle. Out of the middle of this figure is proceeding the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove. We think it must be painful to any christian mind, and repugnant to Christian feeling, to look at this figure." July 17, 1856
It seems these people felt the references to the descriptions of the Cherubim in the Bible gave them license to picture God as one body with three heads, for the Cherubims were of one body with the four faces of an Ox, Lion, Eagle and Man. Yet these creatures were not theophanies of God, nor ever referred to as God in the Bible. (See Ezekiel 10).

In ancient Assyria there has been found a certain figure representing the ancient pagan trinity. It portrays a head and body of an old man with a "zero" or circle surrounding his body. This circle represents the "seed" in pagan symbolism. And lastly you see the wings and tail of the bird or dove extending from the old man. This is unity of three persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost; the pagan trinity.

Pagan Siberia portrayed a trinity also. It showed one body with three heads on it, as seen on a medal that sits in the Imperial Cabinet of old St. Petersburg.

It seems that pagans, who once knew Jehovah, and His three manifestations that would be revealed (not three persons), twisted this One God into a thrice divided god. (Pagans made gods from everything.)

After the first 200 years of the Church, in order to appeal to the pagans, the compromising element of the church concocted a masterplan. In realizing God manifested in three ways they felt they could lure pagans, with their polytheistic beliefs, into Christianity and thus increase Christian popularity. The pagans jumped at such a similar dogma as their own, since they were not told to accept only one God in One person. They already had three person in their ancient creeds, so they readily adhered to a "christianized" version of what they always believed.

Regardless of the proposals of the Trinitarian Christians, the Jews profusely reject such a notion being found in the Old Testament writings as a trinity of three person in One God. In fact, one of the great barriers that keeps them from considering popular Christianity to this day is the doctrine of the Trinity. And the Jew looks upon such erroneous Christianity as just another of the modernized pagan philosophies of polytheism.


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And Jesus Christ said the same thing many times, "I am" John 6:35 “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger.” , John 8:12 “I am the light of the world; he who fallows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.” John 10:9 “I am the gate; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” John 14:6 “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.” and many more...for that the Pharisees had him crucified for claiming to be God.

 

It is a possibility but He is not, that is why Satan took that role of no good, scoundrel, tyrant, merciless SOB, evil dictator, usurper of God, distotionist, enemy of truth etc.

Satan has already been defeated, that is why you still see Satan trying hard to disrupt this world, and God is so merciful He is willing to give even Satan the king of darkness the chance to repent, "forgive them for they know not what they do"

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Anything can be conspire to have been adapted from something just like Islam could have been adapted from moon god, or Zoroastrianism, the one God concept could have already in existence before Moses and was adapted from early Egyptian religion, etc. The fact of the matter is the Trinity was define because it is present in the Holy Bible the clear revelation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Chances are pagan religion use the Bible revelation of God's Three person in One nature doctrine and apply it to their own and created their own trinity, the difference between pagan trinity and Catholic Trinity is that pagan trinity are three separate and different gods, Catholic Trinity is One God in Three Nature or Person.

yes, mathematically that is what it would come out 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 but we are not talking about 1 +1+1 = 3 we are talking about Joe the plumber + Joe the husband + Joe the father = one Joe. Anti Trinitarians are viewing and treating the Trinity or God in a material sense that is why they use the material mathematics of 1+1+1 = 3.

Just like you, I am sure you have several personality or profession right, you can be a writer, an electrician, a store manager all at the same time and still be you, you are still one of all of those not three different Marlowes

 

IMO - THat;s what Jesus is ALLEGED to have said . There's no indisputeable evidence of what he's supposed to have said . It's heresay and not from very reliable sources.

tw - did Jesus really claim to be god ? I'm no authority but I recall it was claimed that he said he was "Son of Man " - please explain , backup and support it, , where + when did Jesus claim he was a god - ?


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Jesus Christ was born not created only Adam and Eve were created they were not born.

 

The trinity is NOT a "fact of the matter " there's not reliable supporting evidence. I disagree + do not accept the bible as you claim - to be a clear revelation of anything . All your doing is parroting the mantras which has been drumnmed into you , perhaps since childhood before you could learn how to think for yourself. No different from fanatical Muslims .


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No , not three different Marlowes - its the same marlowe , who at different times spend times performing different tasks . How many Wanrens are posting on this board ? How many wives are you married to ? , How many times will you go to confession for the same sin , how many times can you eat + digest the same meal , How many times are you prepared to Pay for the same items at supermarket check-out ?

GERTCHA . Get sorted .

 

Yep - according to accounts - yes a mortal , and was killed , executed + died - dead -kaput .

The son of a god , resurrection and space flight story sounds really weird and far fetched.

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I hate it if those who have never read the Holy Bible begin to discuss about matters they know nothing about.The Teaching of Trinity is given by God, read the Holy Bible.

 

Go back and read that verse again a few more times, and maybe you will get it. Look at the portions I put in red and bold. That scripture clearly says Jesus has to go through the Father to get holy spirit. It goes so far as to say the holy spirit proceeds from the Father.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
My guess is that you downloaded these verses from a Trinitarian blog. None of them will help your argument that the holy spirit/holy ghost is the third person of the 3-prong god. I will explain why, by starting with the verses above. When I get tired of debunking your scriptures, I will leave you to go do some Bible reading of the verses where I stop off. I strongly advise during your future Bible reading that you pay attention to context—the surrounding words, verses, and chapters.

Regarding the above verses, where does it say the holy spirit is a person in any of the those scriptures? Every single one of those verses are with reference to Jehovah's holy spirit aka an extension of his power aka his active force. It's his. He owns it. Only he controls it.

Not only do none of the above verses give any indication of the holy spirit being a person, one of them (2 Corinthians 3:17) clearly says that the spirit BELONGS to Jehovah—which indicates the holy spirit is a THING not a person. Keep your eyes on the bolded text within the quotations below.

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (2 Corinthians 3:17)


To make matter worse for your belief that the holy spirit is equal to Jehovah, you quoted Ephesians 4:6 which says God the Father is over all. You do know what "ALL" means; don't you?

"one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:6)

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ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
You can't be serious! Those are not names. Those are possessive descriptions that tell us the holy spirit BELONGS to Jehovah in all of the above verses of scriptures. If you are going to insist those are names, then tell me what those are below? Keep your eyes on the bolded words within the quotations.

"Who knows the spirit of man that goes upward, and the spirit of the beast that goes downward to the earth?" (Ecclesiastes 3:21 – King James Version)


"For what man knows the things of a man, except the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11—King James Version)

"Is there anyone who can understand his own thoughts except his own inner spirit? In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God's Spirit." (1 Corinthians 2:11—International Standard Version)


Notice that at 1 Corinthians 2:11 in the KJV, the same possessive descriptive phraseology is used in reference to both humans and God. The first mentioning within the same verse tells us that man possesses a spirit, which we know is nothing more than his/her life force. The second mentioning within the verse tells us God possesses or owns the spirit aka the holy spirit—which is an extension of God's power or active force.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
Who was it that resurrected Jesus? Didn't the Bible clearly say God raised Jesus from the dead? Therefore, the above scripture is simply saying Jehovah sent forth his holy spirit—which is an extension of his power—and resurrected Jesus from the dead.

"God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this." (Acts 2:32—New Living Translation)

"This Jesus has God raised up, of which we all are witnesses." (Acts 2:32—King James Version)

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
You are ignoring the context, Elijah. This is what people do whenever they don't want to see the light. They quote verses in isolation and ignore the context. Read the context at John 6:39-40, 44, 46, and 57 and you will see whose spirit Jesus was referring to.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
I addressed John 14:26 previously and asked you several direct questions in connection with that verse. You pointedly evaded my questions in that regard. Here are the questions again.

QUESTION #1: Why is it that the Father, Jehovah, is the only one always in control of the holy spirit? Give me your thoughts on that.


QUESTION #2: According to John 14:26, who would be sending the holy spirit?


QUESTION #3: If Jesus is co-equal/as powerful as the Father and if Jesus and Jehovah were the same god within a "Godhead," why would Jesus have to ask the Father to send holy spirit? Wouldn't Jesus have had equal control over the holy spirit and be able to send it himself once he made it back to heaven?


QUESTION #4: If the holy spirit/holy ghost is as powerful as Jehovah, why is it constantly being controlled by Jehovah?


At a minimum, the three of them would take turns controlling each other. Instead, throughout the scriptures, Jehovah is the only person in control of the holy spirit, and Jehovah is always issuing orders to Jesus Christ who is supposedly equal to Jehovah. At no time does the holy spirit or Jesus Christ issue instructions to Jehovah. Give me your thoughts on that.


I will debunk a few more of your scriptures tomorrow from the list you posted (that you got from the Trinitarian blog.)

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
In my last response, I gave you scriptures--from the Bible that you claim you respect--that say God is not a man and God cannot die, as follows.

"God is not a man that he should tell lies, neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret. Has he himself said it and will he not do it, and has he spoken and will he not carry it out?" (Numbers 23:19)


"the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16)

I went so far as to give you three questions that would help you correct your thinking. You refused to answer the questions and you rejected what the scriptures say.

If you don't want to accept what the Bible says, that's not my problem.

 

When God said, Let us make man in our image, who do you think He was talking to? It was not angels.....the Bible nowhere said that angels had any part in man's creation. It was God. as Father, Son(Word) and Holy Spirit who took dirt and made Adam, and took a rib from Adam and made Eve. But below are more examples that the Holy Spirit is God and the Son is also God.

When Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit he lied to God.

Acts 5:3-5 (ASV)
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down and gave up the ghost: and great fear came upon all that heard it.

Here John tells us that the World, who was with God, is God and became flesh......the one we know as Jesus.

John 1:1-4 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


That is why Jesus said He and the Father are one.


John 10:30 (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one.

God called Himself "I AM" and Jesus used that same description of Himself.

Exodus 3:14 (ASV)
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 (ASV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.

In fact, Jesus is not only God; He is the same one that led the House of Israel out of Egypt.

There is one God but within the one God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
Because of your love affair with the pagan/false Trinity, you're contradicting yourself in what you said above. You clearly stated "by dying for us" when referring to Jehovah God. The Bible says God cannot die.

"As for you, O Jehovah, to time indefinite you will dwell, and your memorial will be for generation after generation." (Psalms 102:12 -- New World Translation)

"But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations." (Psalms 102:12 -- King James Version)


The terminologies "time indefinite" and "endure forever" mean there can be no dying for even a second, much less for three days.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
You haven't presented any scriptures that say "God became human." When you respond again, please do so. And this time, be sure and identify your scriptures with the name of the Bible book, chapter, and verse as it makes it easier for me to figure out where you are quoting from.


The scripture at Numbers 23:19 clearly says God is not a man, so I don't hold out much hope that you will find a scripture that contradicts that. The Bible does not contradict itself.

"God is not a man that he should tell lies, neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret. Has he himself said it and will he not do it, and has he spoken and will he not carry it out?" (Numbers 23:19)

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
Those were Thomas' words at John 20:28 to Jesus Christ who had only recently been resurrected from the dead. We've already seen that the Bible says God cannot die. And obviously Thomas wasn't talking to Jehovah.

What most people fail to realize is that the words "god" and "lord" are titles that can be assigned to anyone--including humans. Jesus is indeed a god, but he is not almighty God Jehovah.

In fact, the Bible makes it clear that Thomas was not referring to Jehovah when he addressed Jesus as "my Lord and my God" at John 20:28. This is explained just three verses later, as follows.

"But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, THE SON OF GOD, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:31)

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
You are quoting from the Genesis creation account, at Genesis 1:26. What point are you trying to make with that partial quotation? Do explain.

 

You are now contradicting your self, you said Thomas is addressing Jesus Christ as a Lord not God and yet you pointed out that Thomas said and I agree " My Lord and my God", Jesus Christ is Lord of all humans and He is God.

Genesis 1:26 "let us" plural word "us".....who are the "us"? The Bible has imply many times that God is more than one person not three different persons. The pagans got it wrong they though that God is three different that is why God was explicit that He is the One and Only "I am", and the church define that as the Trinity; Three Persons One God not three persons three different gods that is the belief of the pagans and the anti Trinitarians.

And yes, God can not die, that is why He took human form in order to die as a human and then at the same time demonstrated that only God the Almighty can resurrect, so is the Greatness of the power of God!

Luke 1:35 -39
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Did Jesus Christ ever lied? No, because he is God not just any ordinary man, and the scripture is accurate no contradiction only men can lie not God.

 

Every forum has them, mumpsimuses,
and I do think alter2ego is one of them but here goes anyway,
at least this once:

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us ...."

See John 1:1 for who the Word is. Anyone who disputes the Word as not being Yahshua Christ, is not worth my time.

sarx

1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts
2) the body
a) the body of a man
b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
1) born of natural generation