Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
No, that's not my question. We're not discussing God the Father. Were discussing "God the Spirit"—1 of the 3 "persons" that are combined into the fabricated "Godhead." You told me "God the Spirit" is 1 "person" within the trinity aka singular; remember? You were clear on that in one of our previous exchanges, copied below.

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
My question to you, Elijah—which you are now evading—is this: How can the holy spirit aka "God the Spirit" be the third person of the trinity—SINGULAR—be poured into dozens of people simultaneously, and still remain singular? Wouldn't that make all the people that the holy spirit is poured into a part of the trinity at that point? And once those individuals of whom the Bible says at Acts 2:4, "and they ALL became filled with holy spirit" are involved, wouldn't that change the 3-prong god to a indefinite number? For instance, if two dozen people are filled with holy spirit, you will have to add 24 to God the Father (1 person) and God the Son (1 person) and God the Spirit (1 person), which equals 27 persons. At what point does it stop being a trinity (3-in-1) after dozens of people are filled with holy spirit? Do you see the problem and the contradiction of this false teaching in attempting to make the holy spirit a person? Are you willing to reason on the scriptures? Let me know.

 

The Trinity have been in existence since the late 2nd century before Constantine legalization of Christianity in 320 AD. Constantine saw the fragmentation that exist in Christianity and convince Christian leaders will talk it over in order to establish unity. Constantine understand as an Emperor of a vast empire ruling over a diverse number of ethnic groups uniformity and unity is essential.

The main reason for the council of Nicea was to resolve the differences that include the existing disagreement about the Trinity, deity of Jesus Christ. The Trinity concept was not invented but was formalise after years of research on the Bible that mention several times about God the Father, Holy Spirit and God the Son. These three will also be found in Torah and Muslim Koran the only difference is that Catholics were able to understand it while others failed to do so.

We can always find all kinds of conspiracy claim about the Trinity just like we can also find claims that the One God concept was taken from early Egyptian or Islam is related to the moon god etc. As far as the official historical documents is concern the Trinity is base on the fact that the Bible mention God the Father, Holy Spirit and God the Son and because early church fathers understood the almighty power of God that the concept of Three in One is not an impossible situation for God.

As far as Constantine's role, he presided over the council he did not dictated on what is dogmatic or not especially since he is not familiar or he is a Christian scholar, monk or cleric.

 

Here is a good analogy:

Mr. James is a school teacher, a husband and a carpenter = three jobs or profession but still one James not three different James. The dozens maybe hundreds of students that James will taught will all carry his teachings and soon graduate all those students are plural but James still remain a singular.

If you can accept that God is almighty, then you will have no problem that God can be the Holy Spirit, Father of Jesus Christ, bush fire or what ever He wants to be.

 

nope I don't see it because I believe Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are omnipresent.

 

He seems rather belligerent and young.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
No, we are not saying the same thing. The holy spirit is not Jehovah God. The holy spirit is an extension of Jehovah's power that he sends forth to get things done. The red flag you should have seen was the quotation from Acts 2:4 where it said dozens of people became "filled with holy spirit" and Acts 2:17 where God himself said:

" 'And in the last days,' God says, 'I shall pour out some of MY spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams.' " (Acts 2:17)

The scripture at Acts 2:17 clearly shows that the holy spirit is not a person; it is a thing that BELONGS to Jehovah because it uses the possessive word "MY" in combination with the word "spirit" and we end up with "MY spirit". You ignored those clues because you've conditioned yourself to believe God is a trinity.


Jehovah controls his holy spirit at all times. Not once in the entire Bible has Jesus Christ ever had control over the holy spirit. Never! In fact, Jesus made the following promise to his disciples regarding what he would do for them when he returned to heaven. Keep your eyes on the words in bold within the quoted verse of scripture.

"But the helper, the holy spirit, which THE FATHER WILL SEND in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you." (John 14:26)



QUESTION #1 for ELIJAH: If the holy spirit is a person that is CO-EQUAL with Jehovah and Jesus, why is it that the holy spirit is ALWAYS used in connection with Jehovah being in control of it? At no time do the scriptures say Jesus is able to control the holy spirit. In fact, Jesus had to ask Jehovah to send holy spirit, as noted above. What's your thoughts on that?


QUESTION #2 for ELIJAH: If the holy spirit is a person, and is CO-EQUAL with Jehovah and Jesus, why is it always allowing itself to be controlled by Jehovah? Persons that are co-equal would, at the minimum, take turns being in control of each other; right?

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
Mr. James having three different titles (teacher/husband/carpenter) is a far cry from Mr. James being split up into three distinct persons, as in the case of the pagan trinity. At one point while on earth, Jesus Christ prayed to Jehovah the Father who was in heaven. The Bible says God's voice from heaven responded to Jesus Christ who was still on the earth.


" 'Father, glorify your name.' Therefore a voice came out of heaven: 'I both glorified it and will glorify it again.' " (John 12:28 )


QUESTION #1 to WANREN: According to your analogy, who was Jesus talking to? Himself?


QUESTION #2 to WANREN: According to your analogy, who answered Jesus? His split personality?

 

What you choose to believe and what the Judeo-Christian Bible says are two entirely different things. Or are you telling me that what you believe usurps what's in God's inspired Word? Unless you can present scriptures that back up what you're saying, your belief amounts to your personal opinion.

 

As I previously told you, the expression "God the Holy Spirit" is not found anywhere in the Bible. You continue to regurgitate a Trinitarian concept, and in so doing, you indicate that you refuse to be guided by the scriptures.

 

According to you Mr. James can also be a no- good , idler, bored being alone , who at some time hit on the idea to become "creative " made an almighty mess of his creation , and then shifted the blame on those he created.

If he's really Almighty , then why cant he outdo/ outsmart Satan ?

btw - did you actually think of all you've said by yourself or are you simply parrotting what you've been trained to believe or was it all drummed into your little head before you had a chance to examine/.analise it ?


....

 

Wanren - I know next to nothing about Holy - unholy Ghosts - ghoulies same as . African Voodoo zombies or Tokolosh .
The only spirits I 'm familiarly with are - Scottish Banshees who can regularly be seen in any Glasgow Pub after some Uisce beathas . .

But tell me who was Jesus talking to when nailed to a cross + cried

" "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--


.

 

God wasn't spilt up into three different persons that is why it is Three in One, not three = three. The splitting argument is what the anti Trinatarians are claiming.

I've heard this question many times, understand this when God decided to become human He meant to be human in every aspects, even though He is also Jesus Christ he allowed the human part to function and not to be God because God wants to demonstrate His true love and understanding about being human to us all, just like Abraham who was willing to sacrifice his only son Isaac, God is also willing to sacrifice His but because He is God His son will be Himself in human form. Experiencing human hard ship, pain, sorrow, and death.

How else is the best way for God to show His ultimate love for us than to become one of us; another analogy: undercover managers, store or business owners temporarily gave up their ultimate office of power and money they disguised themselves as ordinary employees in order to find out what is going on, how it feels to be doing what ordinary workers are doing and at the same time to show to their employees that they are appreciated and love by the owners for being like them is the best way to know and for employees to appreciate and love their owners better

Jesus Christ is the human clone of God, and after Jesus fulfilled his mission died on the cross and resurrected his spirit re-united with God.

Who was Jesus talking to to? while in human form to God
Who answered Jesus? God

There is no split personality because Jesus and God are One, so is the Almighty power of God, incomprehensible and majestic.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
No, it's not anti-Trinitarians that are claiming God was split up into three persons. The splitting into three "persons" came from the Roman Catholic Church—the very people that dreamed up the Trinity dogma and formalized it more than 300 years after Jesus Christ returned to heavenly life. Look at how they defined it below, keep your eyes on the words in all caps and bold.

Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be THREE PERSONS, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

In other words, you are arguing against the very thing you are defending when you reject the idea that the false/pagan Trinity involves splitting God into three persons.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- WANREN:
Notice the portions of your comment above that are printed in bolded red. According to you, God himself became human and literally died. You went so far as to say God "meant to be human in every aspects." Let's see what God's Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, says about that.

"God is not a man that he should tell lies, neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret. Has he himself said it and will he not do it, and has he spoken and will he not carry it out?" (Numbers 23:19)


"the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16)



QUESTION #1: The scripture at Numbers 23:19 says God is not a man. Who am I to believe, WanRen? Am I to believe you who are saying God himself became human? Or am I to believe God's instructions in the Bible?


QUESTION #2: The scripture at 1 Timothy 6:16 says God cannot die. Am I to take your word over what the Bible says, WanRen?


QUESTION #3: The scripture at 1 Timothy 6:16 says regarding God, "not one of men has seen or can see" him. WanRen, if you were in my position, who would you believe? The inspired word of Jehovah aka the Judeo-Christian Bible? Or would you believe the words of a Trinitarian who is arguing against what's written in the God's word?

 

If the Trinity doctrine is false, then how would you explain, Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Isn't that three?

 

The two former U.S. President Bushes (George H. Bush and George W. Bush) and Jeb Bush (the son of George H. Bush and brother of George W. Bush) are three persons that are closely related. But does that mean they are combined into a single individual? Let me know.

 

What does that have to do with God? The scriptures said that God is one, at the same time it says the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God, but it did not say that there are tree Gods. But your response is just an attempt to sides-step my question.

 

You said the Holy Spirit is God, right? Also you haven't answered, is God Omnipresent?

 

Where ever the concept of the trinity of three gods came from, it certainly is not found in the Scriptures known commonly as the Bible.

The Yahweh of the Old Covenant is the Yahshua of the New Covenant.

Both Yahweh and Yahshua claim to be I AM.

Yahshua came to fulfill the promises He made as Yahweh.

If you have seen me (Yahshua) you have seen the Father (Yahweh)

I (Yahshua) and the Father (Yahweh) are One.

One does not make Three.

 

Neither does 2 make one, right?

 

Sorry I attributed this to Alter2Ego...........it was not him that said it

 

Verses showing identity, ministry, and personhood of the Holy Spirit
1.The Holy Spirit mentioned on equal level with God
A.Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
B.2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
C.Eph. 4:4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
D.2 Cor. 3:16-18, "but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."
2.Names of the Holy Spirit
A.Spirit of God
i.Rom. 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." See also Gen. 1:2
B.Spirit of Christ
i.Rom. 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."
C.Spirit of your Father
i.Matt. 10:20, "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."
D.The Spirit of Truth
i.John 14:17, "that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." See also, John 15:26.
E.The Spirit of the Lord
i.Acts 8:39, "And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing." See also Judges 15:14; 1 Sam. 16:12
3.The Holy Spirit is referred to as a person by scripture
A.Who
i.Rom. 8:11, "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."
ii.John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
iii.1 John 5:6, "And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."
iv.See also 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Tim. 1:14;
B.He
i.John 14:26, "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
C.Himself
i.Rom. 8:16, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"
ii.Rom. 8:26, "And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words"
4.Personhood of the Holy Spirit (has emotions, is aware, speaks, knows, etc.)
A.Grieves
i.Isaiah 63:10, "But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them."
ii.Eph. 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
B.Loves
i.Rom. 15:30, "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me."
C.Has a mind
i.Rom. 8:27, "and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
D.Speaks
i.2 Sam. 23:2, "The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue."
ii.Acts 8:29, "And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
iii.Acts 10:19, "And while Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you."
iv.Acts 11:12, "And the Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. And these six brethren also went with me, and we entered the man’s house."
v.Acts 13:2, "And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
vi.Acts 21:11, "And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’"
vii.Acts 28:25-26, "And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, saying, ‘Go to this people and say, "You will keep on hearing, but will not understand."
viii.1 Tim. 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,"
ix.Heb. 3:7-8, "Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, 'Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, as in the day of trial in the wilderness,"
x.Rev. 2:7, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God." See also Rev. 2:11,17,29; 3:6,13,22.
xi.Rev. 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
xii.Rev. 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost."
E.Knows
i.1 Cor. 2:11, "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God."
F.Has an awareness of goodness
i.Acts 15:28, "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials."
G.Can be lied to
i.Acts 5:3, "But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land?"
H.Can be tested
i.Acts 5:9, "Then Peter said to her, 'Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test?'"
I.Makes overseers
i.Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."
J.Can be a witness
i.Acts 5:32, "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
K.Can be resisted
i.Acts 7:51, "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit."
5.Activities of the Holy Spirit
A.Teaches
i.John 14:26, "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
ii.Luke 12:12, "for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
B.Intercedes
i.Rom. 8:26, "And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;"
C.Leads
i.Matt. 4:1, "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil."
D.Gives life
i.John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
E.Filled by
i.Acts 2:4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."
6.Forms of the Holy Spirit
A.Dove
i.Matt. 3:16, "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him."

7.Miscellaneous
A.Can be spoken against
i.Matt. 12:32, "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come."
B.Can be baptized with the Holy Spirit
i.Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
C.The Spirit is given
i.John 3:34, "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.
D.The Spirit is received
i.John 20:22, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."
E.The Spirit forbids
i.Acts 16:6, "And they passed through the Phrygian and Galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia."
F.The Spirit searches all things
i.1 Cor. 2:10, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
G.The Spirit is the truth
i.1 John 5:6, "And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."

 

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
I said nothing of the sort! On two separate and distinct occasions, I gave you detailed answers—along with scriptures—about the nature of the holy spirit. I went over this completely with you on page 2, post 19 and on page 4, post 31. I suggest you go to both pages and read what I previously said.

BTW: I'm still waiting for you to answer my direct questions on page 2, post 20.

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
No, Jehovah is not omnipresent. That's why he sends forth his spirit—an extension of his power—to get things done. That's also the reason why in the Bible he sent angels as messengers in his place as his representatives. He did this with Abraham prior to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and he did it with Moses when presenting him with the Ten Commandments, Jehovah's place is in heaven. The idea of God being omnipresent is a human philosopy not supported by the scriptures.

"This is what Jehovah has said: 'THE HEAVENS are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that you people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?' " (Isaiah 66:1)


"Jehovah is in his holy temple. Jehovah--in THE HEAVENS is his throne. His own eyes behold, his own beaming eyes examine the sons of men." (Psalms 11:4)

~***~​

 

1. Jesus sends the spirit in the next 2 verses
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
2. The Father
3. Both have control
4. its also controlled by Jesus, see my verses

Now you God is not omnipresent, but this says He is

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BF SMITH:
The Bible says nothing of the kind. The terminology "the Son is God" and "the Holy Spirit is God" are nowhere to be found in the Judeo-Christian Bible. One of the places where such falsehoods are indicated is in Article I of the Roman Catholic's definition of the false/pagan Trinity, as follows.

Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be THREE PERSONS, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."


I challenge you to present scriptures that specifically say "the Son is God" and "the Holy Spirit is God".


I will wait.