The Pittsburgh Steelers football team will remain in the locker room during the National Anthem

Cite me one time when this recommendation was violated and the league imposed a fine, suspension, or forfeited a draft choice. Kaepernick has been doing this for more than a year. Surely they've imposed disciple on one of the players if this is more than just a recommendation.

 

As I have said, I wish Kaepernick had chosen another method and venue for his protest. I personally stand for the anthem and say the pledge aloud. However, the flag and the anthem are simply symbols of the country that protects freedom of speech. If you limit free speech, you are limiting the very thing that the flag and anthem represent. You see lots of military people saying that they don't like what appears to be disrespect for the flag and anthem, but they have pledged to give their life to defend the right to do so. It's free speech and other rights that set our country apart from others. Those rights are part of the Constitution, the same Constitution that elected officials and members of the military swear to defend. They don't swear to defend the flag or the anthem. Do I wish they stood respectfully? Yes. Do I support their right to choose for themselves? Yes. Those things are not mutually exclusive. I hope you can see that.

 

Goodness gracious!

No, I am not changing my view. "Should" does not mean "must." "May" does not mean "will." A recommendation is not a rule. Words matter. "Should" and "may" were chosen for a reason.

 

Perception matters.

 

So, you have no citation of the NFL taking any kind of disciplinary action against a player for not standing during the anthem? I didn't think so. When they do, then we can talk semantics about "should" and "may" again.

 

Oh I completely agree with that. After reading why Kaepernick chose to kneel rather than sit, my perception of his protest changed a bit. I still don't like that he chose to kneel during the anthem, but I understand it was because of the suggestion from a Green Beret to do so in respect. The flag draping a coffin in a military funeral is given to the family, as the soldier kneels, and asks them to accept the flag from a grateful country.

 

Probably moot. Dallas, and Jerry Jones, very strategically knelt prior, not during the anthem. Goodell, and the owners have compromised with the union, and players to avoid confrontation. How the NFL as a whole, now reconciles with fans is the question. Scapegoating Trump is an option, but Trump being Trump, the issue won't simply subside. At some point a truce between players, and law enforcement must be brokered to resolve this.

 

That's why I recommended you review the thread about what the NFL operating manual specifically says about this. Words certainly do matter.
For instance if I tell you "You should keep your hand off that hot stove" I'm expressing an imperative, i.e. DO NOT touch that stove!
I'm not saying "Hey, it's cool with me if you stick your hand on that burner. Whatever you want, though. I wouldn't do it but it's okay with me".

Actually read the operations manual in context and tell me they are merely suggesting players treat the national anthem with respect.
The fact that the league included the punishments one could receive (should they deign) should tell anyone you are looking at this
in a skewed biased manner.
I expect as a reasonably smart and reasonable person you will come around.


"Should" is a past tense form of the word "shall" by the way.
http://www.talkenglish.com/grammar/auxiliary-verbs-will-would-shall-should.aspx

 

I agree with almost everything you've said. The one point where I don't is that I don't think law enforcement will be part of this. My guess is that it will be part of the contract negotiations, if they change anything. Of course, the owners have the option to not renew a contract, like has been done with Kaepernick.

Trump has some issues with the NFL not allowing him to merge his USFL team into the NFL. The lawsuit got really nasty. They may scapegoat using Trump, or just be quiet and let the controversy pass. With Trump, another controversy is going to come along soon and distract people from this issue. I think this will subside, but maybe not immediately.

 

I have read the thread you've mentioned, the NFL Rules and Operation Manual, and I still disagree with your take on it.

My view is aligned with what the NFL says they mean in the NFL Operation Manual, written by the NFL, and clarified by the NFL VP for Communication, communicating the NFL's position and what they will do about the situation. They have not punished anyone for not standing during the anthem. They have no plans to punish anyone for not standing during the anthem. You don't have to like it and can protest on your own against their stance, but they wrote the guidelines and rules, they interpret them and enforce them… and they are not disciplining anyone over this controversy, and have not disciplined anyone over this controversy.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. Maybe the NFL will change or maybe they won't, but if they do, it's their decision.

 

The NFL is frantic to assure us all what this isn't about. Flag / anthem / vets ... That leads them back to Kaepernick, and deadly force. The longer they avoid law enforcement, the longer it drags out.

 

AHhhhh!! I see where you were going with the law enforcement angle now. Yes, we agree.

 

I would expect no less from a well paid NFL public relations monkey....Those "rules"? Oh, they aren't rules because no one is following them.
See, if there were rules about players using their visibility to make personal on field political statements, we would have fined them (like we did with Robert Griffin III and Vaughn Miller). But no one is being fined now, so ipso facto clearly there are no such rules. I'm not even sure what you are referring to.


What is disappointing is a reasonably intelligent fellow like you swallowing the bait but we all know that emotions can and do shape what the mind will rationalize. We certainly will agree to disagree and my respect for you and the NFL will undoubtedly suffer as a result.

The NFL is stubbornly digging a bigger hole for themselves.

 

With all due respect, I don't post my opinion for your approval or disappointment. Accusing me of "swallowing bait" for stating my opinion is insulting. Also, I don't care if your respect for me suffers because we disagree. One of the most wonderful things about my country is that I can freely state my opinion on things, whether you agree, disagree, respect me or not.

I support your right to express your opinion.

 

Nor do I for you.

As is the patently phony rationale of an NFL PR flak.

With all due respect to you the self serving comments of a PR man for the league, who says that we decide what our own rules mean
(which sounds exactly like the recent ruling by a Florida judge that screwed Bernie Sanders voters and spared the DNC when it said that we (the DNC) decide what our rules mean... despite what our entire system of party led elections presumes) doesn't change the fact that the NFL had in place policy backed by sanctions that outlawed specifically what the NFL itself is engaging in itself at this very time.

And that's the crux of the argument! Not that the crooked NFL can do whatever they like with their product. They can.
The point is they are being essentially dishonest and standing with malcontent millionaire athletes (many of them brain damaged)
against the interests of many angry and disrespected paying NFL customers! Period! You would do well to consider this point.

That's not in question.

 

Oh I fully and freely admit the NFL is not enforcing its own rules. They have made their politics abundantly clear. That doesn't mean the rules don't exist.

I see you had no response to my example of "may" being used by state laws when it comes to punishment either which of course never invalidates the law broken. You really need to learn that just because the discipline varies does not mean the law doesn't exist.

I'm amazed you even tried that defense considering the court system makes deals every single day on punishment but never do they say the law was just a recommendation.

 

You should have seen the fans' reaction when the teams were being integrated.

 

Since people are whining about the rules maybe the league should change the rules to include only football specific rules, such as no chocking of the players and no smoking on the field.

 

Too bad the whole lot is unconcerned when thug cops murder people.

 

Rules and laws aren't recommendations. They are imperatives (a. A rule, principle, or need that requires or compels certain action).

It's fun when smart people twist and contort their rationales to try and fit the narrative they are pushing.

 

The NFL is not imposing a consequence to a recommendation. That's the "may" part of the recommendation in the Operations Manual. The RULE book is about the actual game of football. Laws and the legal system have nothing to do with this situation. NFL players are contractual employees and what they must do and must not do is part of their contract. NFL players also have a union that participates in negotiations. If it isn't spelled out explicitly in the contract, it doesn't apply. The NFL, by the NFL VP for Communications, communicated to the public, that the Operations Manual is not a RULE book, but procedures to follow on game days. Remember please, that what governs the players is what is in their contract, not what is in the Operational Manual. That's pretty much what the NFL VP for Communications said in the NFL public release. It doesn't matter what you think it means. It doesn't matter if you think the spokesperson for the NFL doesn't speak for the NFL, when he releases information for the NFL. You don't run the NFL. It matters what those running the NFL think, and they say it isn't a rule and there won't be punishment for breaking a non-rule.

As I said several posts back, we're not going to agree. I support your right to hold whatever opinion you wish to hold, but frankly, I don't care what it is. I'm also done with this conversation.

 

You keep calling it a recommendation but when I challenge you to prove it, you run. Not take someone else's word for it, prove it yourself.

Just like you "may" serve 3-5 or 6-10 years depending on the crime. The law you broke hasn't become a suggestion either just because the penalties vary.

Really. Then why did they write the other one? Boredom?

They do when you pretend that a punishment of "may" magically transforms a rule into a recommendation with no proof whatsoever in the actual wording.

LOL Then why do they list any penalty if like you are claiming, cannot be enforced? Go ahead bois, explain that.

100% false. They never made that statement and I challenge you to quote anyone who did from the NFL.

We already know that never happened but you are welcome to try and back yourself up.

Remember please that no one writes a rule down in specific detail and with the possibility of penalties because its a recommendation. That has to be the worst part of your argument besides ignoring the actual text of the rules itself.

You can keep running from the actual wording all you like and fabricating a rule is magically recommendation because a VP of the NFL told you so despite knowing he has a clear political bias and no facts beyond his word to support his claim but it will never change the actual wording of the rule, the actual definition of should, or pretend the penalties listed can never be enforced with no legal basis whatsoever beyond an opinion.

 

They should remain in the locker room for the duration of this Football season.

 

This contract expired on Feb 2017, but it's the latest one available from the SEC on line.

 

Sorry you took off, but you've made some errors here.

The NFL player contract calls for the player to abide by the NFL's rules/procedures.

The NFL operations manual contains rules/procedures, including how the players are to comport themselves during the anthem.

They are to STAND (if able), and may be disciplined if they do not stand.

They are contractually obligated to do this if able.

The NFL made a HUGE mistake in failing to enforce this contractually mandated rule by not fining Kaepernick last year and nipping his rule-breaking prima donna 15 minute dance in the bud.

Now it's blown up, and they're bleeding cash and respect.

They need to reaffirm the rule, and enforce it, per the player contracts.

Problem - at least this one - solved.

In the meantime, I'm one of millions boycotting the NFL and its advertisers.