America's Russia Derangement Syndrome

Cerberus: Thank you for the kind compliment. I too live in the UK (despite being an American) and I share your wish for a rational intelligent leader in both the US and UK. ("Strong" I'm not so eager for ... it has multiple interpretations.) Churchill, Roosevelt ... where are you now that we need you?

 

The way Trump has now reversed what he said in Helsinki reminds me of the way the coroner Miller in Pennsylvania on 9/11 reversed what he initially said. Miller reversed because he was under pressure from the FBI, Trump reversed what he said because he was under pressure from the FBI and more, and perhaps because he knows the fate suffered by JFK could very well be his own fate if he doesn't get with the program.

 

Funny. As if anyone is contemplating a shooting war over Russias cyber attack. Can't any of these new fake right bone spur nationalists think anymore?

 

They would rather go to war with the American right and hang Trump so the legitimate President could take her throne.

 

You mean like Col. Bone Spur, Putin loving, Trump.

 

I don't think they actually want a shooting war, they just think they can do as they find politically expedient with no consequences or repercussions. The leadership just believe there is no down side to using their Russia legend for home front politics.

 

In my opinion those who have been visciouly attacking Mueller, Rosenstein and Strzok accusing them of belonging to some anti-American "deep state" cabal need to tone down THIER rhetoric and let OUR people do their jobs. The difference is that you are talking about overzealous internet posters and TV talking heads I am talking about the President and several rabid members of congress.

Nobody is suggesting that we start a nuclear or any other kind of shooting war with Russia but that doesn't mean we should just lay down and let their government sponsored spies and mobsters run amok here in the US, meddle in our election process and compromise our power grids.

There is evidence that this has and continues to be the case. I am not a leftist, a rightist, or any other type of "ist" I am simply an American who is disgusted by blowhards like Trump, Jordan, Nunez, Gohmert and Gowdy who have been shooting their big mouths off repeatedly attacking our guys while ignoring and even praising scumbags like Putin and his army of spies and criminals.

 

I think Gatewood overstated his case, and probably would re-word his assessment of the Left and its attitude to Russia if he had to present a reasoned essay rather than dash off a hasty forum post. These forums don't encourage considered assessments of the other side. We conservatives get called "Nazis" and "fascists" all the time by people on the Left, but we shouldn't adopt the same stupid, thoughtless method of argument in return.


"There is ample evidence that Putin and his regime are kleptocrats and murderers who are out causing mischief here in America and in other places around the globe."
I think the internal reality of Russia is more complex than this, but let's stipulate, as the lawyers say, that you're right.

How should the US react when a foreign leader is a murdering kleptocrat, (and is not a murdering kleptocrat that we ourselves installed in power)? At the very least, we should treat such leaders as we treat the murdering kleptocrats who assumed power in Africa after the evil white man had been driven out. But of course these are weak regimes whose rulers just want to enrich themselves - they play no role on the world stage. What about a big power like Russia?

We have a model: Mao Tse Tung's regime in China. For two decades, anyone in the US who advocated dealing with the actual existing Chinese government in a sensible way was met with screeches of anger from the Right, "He's the greatest mass murderer of all time! etc etc."

Nonetheless, Richard Nixon did the right thing and overturned our China policy. Incidentally, our 'bringing China in from the cold' coincided with the beginning of a deep transformation in China, moving it towards being a more normal country. (It was not incidental, in my opinion.)

I don't know to what extent, if any, the CIA and FBI have overstepped the mark in these investigations, becoming more partisan than they should be. If they did, it was because they were alarmed at the prospect of someone like Trump becoming Chief Executive. I can absolutely understand that.

It also seems likely to me that the Russians did not take a hands-off attitude to the 2016 elections. Perhaps they were trying to be grateful. We helped a drunken poltroon to power there in 1996, and they just returned the favor twenty years later.

Of course the Left does not want war with Russia. In the first place, 'the Left' is not united -- witness the Open Letter thread from many very serious people mainly on the Left. The problem is that a section of the Left seem to have difficulty separating their disgust with Trump, from a sober assessment of what American foreign policy with respect to Russia should be.

I'm actually not too worried about this. Aggressive war-talk is actually deeply counter to the instincts of people on the Left. It's even less ingrained than the post-2001 concern of some people on the Right for women's and gay rights in Iran and Afghanistan.

More importantly, it seems to me that the Russians and the Israelis are working out something sensible in the Middle East, and if so, then once AIPAC gets the word that the US should tone down the anti-Russian rhetoric, you'll see it vanish like the morning dew, at least from all our elected politicians.

 

You certainly don't sound like a leftist.

Some of us are not so sure the people you listed as OUR people really are OUR people. Mueller's investigation is heavily weighted on the left side and that raises the same brows as it would if it were weighted the other way. You know, like the Republican led Senate and House searches were. In spite of all the protests of indifference to any agenda but justice, we do have to understand that 'justice' means different things to different people. It is impossible to keep strong bias from influencing the kind of legal investigation that is going on today.

So far all that has come of all the time and money spent is that we know that Russia is being Russia and sticking their nose into our business. Of course we already knew that, Obama just didn't think it was necessary to make a fuss about it before Democrats lost the White House.

I don't just see Democrats as the sole problem or source of TDS. The old guard GOP stands to lose a lot as well and they have done what they can to undermine the administration. Of course politics has only been a treacherous occupation since it became a human endeavor. Trump will either end up an agent of change for the US and the world or he will be a speed bump on the road to a socialized, global society.

 

I do not disagree with most of what you stated above sir. However I still stand by my assertions regarding the attacks on our national security, counterespionage and top federal law enforcement personnel by the President and several of his blind lackeys in congress. This "deep state" crap is just that...crap. Meanwhile these same politicians seem to be ignoring and in some cases seemingly sucking up to our adversaries. I do not think that Trump is actively working with Putin or his spy and criminal networks knowingly but rather he is being conned by them and he is way out of his league.

 

"our people"...

 

You can throw your "TDS" crap right in there with Gatewoods "Deep State" garbage. Bush and Cheney's cheerleaders used to pull the same crap on anyone who rightly accused their heros of being lying war profiteers. In fact Trump as much accused them of it in the GOP primaries after which I sent $500 to Mr. Trump's campaign. I have no problem with Trump's policy of diplomacy rather that starting idiotic bloody turd hunts like Bush did and I have no problem with Trump's so called trade wars either. He is doing exactly what he said he would in his campaign.

However, I do not think this Russia probe is partisan witch hunt much less some crazy "deep state" conspiracy and that our counterespionage and career federal law enforcement people are traitors. That's some vile crap that seems to be churned right out of the Kremlin. I think that Trump should shut his big trap and let his DOJ and FBI finish their inquiry. So far nobody from the DOJ or the FBI have accused him of any criminal activity. If they do, he will certainly have a chance to defend himself in an open and fair arena.

 

Yes, our people meaning American guys like Mueller, Strzok and Comey who have been investigating foreign criminals and spies for decades. Before you accuse them of anything, at least let's see what the results of their investigation and see what the evidence looks like. We will find out some of it in a couple weeks when Manafort's trial begins and let's also see what turns up regarding Rohrbacher's girlfriend who was arrested a few days ago. Until it is shown to be any different, I will give guys like Mueller, Rosenstein and even Comey the benifit of the doubt. Cheers

 

Yes, I knew who you meant. I was just giggling at the concept that they're yours (as in "ours").

Such naiveté.

 

Churchill said "Russia is a riddle, inside a mystery, wrapped in an enigma". It's a mostly Western country that's seen more than its share of chaos and tragedy. Then throw in the fact that it tends to shoot itself in the foot occasionally and you have a hot mess.

No one truly understands Russia. So it's not surprising people don't know how to approach it.

If only it was a semi-normal country, like France ....

 

Yes I do feel that these guys work for the US citizens who have hired them as national security and law enforcement officials. Up to this point, I have not seen any evidence that Mueller, a kid that came from a rich Philadelphia family and rather than use his wealth and influence to avoid serving our country opted instead to join the US Marines serve with valor and distinction, then finish school and become a lifetime civil servant or Rod Rosenstein a well respected Republican career prosecutor for the US DOJ have suddenly been recruited by this mysterious "Deep State" for the purpose of falsely accusing super Patriot Trump and his buddy Putin. Instead of giggling, why not produce some credible evidence. So far, all of what I have heard from you and your ilk has been laughable.

 

So, you're a follower of Washington's New Orwellian Dictionary I notice, where any elected president that is not under US control is now termed a 'dictator'.

According to Hillary's own screams that they will hang if she doesn't win, and all that we know from the emails in Weiner's computer, it appears that the top echelons of the Democratic Party want to avoid jail time by accusing Trump of anything and everything - and by saying he colluded with Putin was the best they could find.

This way they gain the support of the military industrial complex, the gay lobbyists, and the criminal Russian oligarchs who stole billions and came here. That we might end up in a nuclear war because of it is beyond them.

Putin is a bad guy because it's what the propaganda outlets have been telling them, in the same way that Assad is a bad guy. No facts and reality, just blast the lies in the headlines, that way it works best with the masses.

As for Putin supporting Iran, well he supports Israel too, and works to be a mediator for peace - but that's a concept that alludes the American people - thanks to the media's mind control tactics.

A British expert on body language gave her analysis of the meeting between Trump and Putin. Other than saying they both seemed tense and impatient she said that Trump kept trying to make eye contact with Putin and he avoided it. This reminds me of an incident I read about in the 90's, when an American senator visited Mount Athos, and wanted to meet with Saint Paisios.

When the Senator tried greeting him, the Saint avoided eye contact and refused to speak to him. The person who accompanied the Senator asked him why, and was told that it's because they are murderers and if it wasn't for the US, there wouldn't be any wars.

So why did Putin avoid eye contact? I'm going to render a guess that it might have to do with the enormous cache of American weapons which have been uncovered recently in the terrorist strongholds by the Syrian army -- or maybe not. Could be a combination of factors. Maybe even the massive war games in the Black Sea.

 

Then in order to stop being a "poodle" Britain should align themselves with more like-minded nations, or not have any alliances at all.

Which country do you think would make better allies?

 

I smell a Russian troll OP..

 

That all occurred during the Obama Administration.

 

Come on Fred, kook it with the blame Obama crap and respond to the whole post. You are better than that.

 

In the other two paragraphs you were just venting your feelings so there was little to debate. The middle paragraph contained the meat of the post. Here are the other two paragraphs.

"In my opinion those who have been visciouly attacking Mueller, Rosenstein and Strzok accusing them of belonging to some anti-American "deep state" cabal need to tone down THIER rhetoric and let OUR people do their jobs. The difference is that you are talking about overzealous internet posters and TV talking heads I am talking about the President and several rabid members of congress.
There is evidence that this has and continues to be the case. I am not a leftist, a rightist, or any other type of "ist" I am simply an American who is disgusted by blowhards like Trump, Jordan, Nunez, Gohmert and Gowdy who have been shooting their big mouths off repeatedly attacking our guys while ignoring and even praising scumbags like Putin and his army of spies and criminals".

These are your feelings, which means I'd have to respond with my feelings, and that doesn't interest me. There is no possible rational response to any of that.

 

My take on this whole deal is that the FBI has been investigating Russian spy networks operating here in the US for well over a half century. I am sure that we have similar operations over there which the Russians have discovered and arrested. In fact, Strzok who is our top counterespionage agent worked for 8 years to uncover a huge nest of Russian spies whom were all arrested in 2011. They were rounded up and deported in exchange for some of our guys who were busted doing the same thing over there. There is a book called "Ghost Stories" detailing these events.

These counterespionage investigations have continued and expanded since then throughout Obama's two terms and into Trump's first year and a half. Obama was aware of some of what was going on and he even warned Trump about hiring Flynn during the transition as he knew Flynn was mixed up perhaps unwittingly with some of these Russian agents and mobsters. What pisses me off is this whole "deep state" crap wherein political partisans in congress are accusing guys like Bob Mueller, Peter Strzok and Rod Rosenstein of being traitors who have just started these investigations to get rid of Trump. That's utter bullcrap. These investigations are and have been going on throughout several different political regimes here in the US.

Now a woman has been arrested who has allegedly been trying to infiltrate the NRA and the US congress while reporting back to the Kremlin. That seems worth looking into in my opinion. As always, I will presume that she is innocent until proven guilty, but by the same token I will also presume that the prosecutors are charging her in good faith until I see evidence that this prosecution is illegal or malicious.

I still have faith in our court system and I will wait until the cases that Rosenstein, Mueller and other US and state prosecutors have brought have been adjucated before I form my final opinion regarding this whole mess. We have a bail hearing for the alleged Russian spy coming up today and Manafort's trial will be starting in a week or so. Rather than repeating all of this Sean Hannity deep state crap, I think it would be wise to follow the court proceedings on a neutral basis and see how the evidence stacks up. Cheers

 

They don't have to accuse him, the goal of this partisan exercise is headlines and keeping the left wing base agitated. Trump will likely get another term and this crap will still be in place doing exactly what it is doing today. It will end at the celebration party if and when another Democrat is elected President. Could take 20 or 30 years.