6% number is not debunked

If I am reading that data correctly the single largest change up or down in those figures is a rise of about 85,000. Thus far this year the rise has been over 250,000 and will likely be around 300,000 by year's end. Further, that rise begins at the point when COVID deaths began to rise. Even more remarkable, there are similar rises in a number of other nations hard hit by COVID. Must be a bad year for 'natural variation' in nations hit by COVID.

You can actually look at the stats on the CDC website with and without reported COVID deaths. Have a guess what the 'without' looks like - it looks like the preceding years. That is a staggering set of coincidences that no no one has even bothered to try and explain in any credible fashion.

So lets play. Lets say that 100,00 of those excess deaths are some sort of 'normal' variation that includes the 15,00 or so COVID deaths the '6% crowd acknowledge. That would be very, very high, but lets pretend for the sake of argument. That leaves you 150,000+ now & likely 200,000+ excess deaths by year's end to explain without COVID. Good luck doing that without either making stuff up or resorting to conspiracy theories (which is still making stuff up).

 

The loss of blood, the car accident was a contributing factor.

 

All the data shows the virus to be barely morbid. All the data shows we've been conned. All the data shows many folks do not even realize they've been conned, a typical situation for the human species. Men go mad in herds, but they recover their senses slowly, and only one by one.

 

Either way the death is put in the covid death column

 

No, I'm not the "wall of text too long" kind of person. It's nice that you consider yourself expert enough to make a clinical diagnosis over the internet though. I appreciate your condolences on the loss as well. What I don't appreciate is that you felt entitled enough to attempt to assert such an inappropriate response. You literally don't know the medical history. You cannot be certain of any of your assumptions. You produced two entirely unrelated morbidities, and yet you feel certain that you've "nailed it". As for my "denial", I'll rely on the findings of the attending and consider your post the factless attribution of your own ego that it was. I would also point out that your inability to know the medical history severely undercuts any credibility you thought you could establish in this conversation, and without expressing history that is entirely inappropriate to disclose, your analysis is spurious at best.

My relative died of the exact thing he was already dying from pre covid. Simple as that. The exposure, the ordeal, and the isolation of his last weeks was devastating to watch, and the family was unable to otherwise be there or comfort because of the petty tyranny of those who held him in the hospital in such a way. That is the real take away here. It is certainty, like yours, that is developing the backlash against prudent medical care for the future. Future patients, hell current patients, are deathly afraid of what will now happen to them in a hospital. Was that your intent? Was your desire to see the experience to be so off putting, and so draconian that you'd what? wean people from their health care needs entirely?

That really is the problem now. Folks are afraid of going to the hospital. Even in the cases of the rarest, most dangerous, most infectious diseases, humanity always found a way to allow for the families of folks to be included, albeit in a very protected way, to be a part of their loved ones illnesses. And today? none. Personal Protective equipment exists and is certainly plentiful enough that the "risk" could have been entirely mitigated. And yet, it wasn't available to the family. And what we witnessed was an overreaction so gross that confidence in the medical delivery service has been almost entirely eroded. And all because folks, seemingly now just like you, have the temerity to assume that you "know stuff" in a factual way that supports the death mills approach to medicine that we're now witnessing. And that's really sad. Did it make you feel righteous writing your ignorant post? I suppose only you can answer for yourself. Suffice it to say though, what your post actually demonstrated is the total denial of science, medicine, and humanity. Bully for you.

 

In other words you can't find it either

 

The covid wasn't the cause. The high blood pressure and cardio vascular constriction was the cause In the case where an individual actually recovered from covid and still ultimately died from a heart attack, the heart attack was still caused by the high blood pressure. Are you attempting to assert that you never ever get over or recover from covid? Is that really what you're asserting here?

 

Contributing?

You mean it was one of many?

What pray tell were those?

Bottom line...no car accident...no bleeding. He died because of a car accident

 

Sorry, I entirely doubt what you are saying. You didn't give enough details but the ones that you did give, make it extremely likely that your relative died of pulmonary complications of Covid-19 (maybe superimposed on an existing lung illness, but still); and it seems like according to you, it's what his death certificate said, right? Therefore, it's weird that you rely on the findings of the attending; wouldn't the attending be the one who wrote the certificate you complained about??? You want to disprove that, you'd have to be more specific. Since you don't want to be (nor you should be required to be since health information is private), sorry, but I will keep my opinion. Which is not certain but is darn likely, given that we don't write death certificates lightly and we don't falsify them for money.

Now, what the hospital policies did to your family by not allowing visits, is indeed a problem but is 100% unrelated to my post. Complain to the hospital administration, not to me. You say my post is denial of humanity - how in the hell am I responsible for any of what happened in this regard??? I simply commented on the FACT that Covid-19 damages the lungs in many ways, often in a subsequent/complication phase that is tardive and beyond the positive PCR tests, and the fact that your relative was no longer positive doesn't discount the lung complications as to indicate Covid-19 as the real cause of death. The morbidities I provided were examples (you failed to understand that... and how wouldn't they be? I did provide TWO case-scenarios, right? Do you think I thought they both happened? Obviously I was giving examples... and there are others. One of the possible case-scenarios must have killed your relative, given that the death certificate considered the death as a Covid-19 death. I did not affirm that he died of pulmonary embolism or pulmonary fibrosis. I said, the virus attacks the lungs in various ways.

The main issue here and it's the one that gives me my quasi-certainty, is that I trust my colleagues in writing up an accurate death certificate, and you don't. Period, full stop.

Total denial of science and medicine - weird. That's not what my medical students, my residents, my trainee fellows, my colleagues, my superiors, my State Medical Board, my Specialty Board, the universities that granted me my degrees, my numerous published papers, the agencies that gave me numerous grants, my two published textbooks, my handful of published chapters in textbooks, and my awards seem to to say about my respect for and ability to understand and create medical science, for the last 40 years. But whatever rocks your both, champ. Who was talking about assumptions, again?

As for all your other insults to me (ignorant, bully, etc.), go right ahead. Personal attacks are actually against the rules of this site, but I don't care; I don't feel like reporting you; you're likely sad and angry enough for the loss of your relative, and I actually sincerely pity you. So, yeah, be angry, yell at me, call me a bunch of stuff. Displacement helps; look up this psychological mechanism of defense (you are clearly already displaying it, by blaming ME who presumably wasn't there - unless in the statistically unlikely possibility that your relative came to my hospital - for what you call inhumane treatment of your family by that hospital, when you accuse me of "denial of humanity" which I absolutely didn't display - and again, my post was 100% unrelated to any of that).

There is one thing, though. People who "debate" by issuing personal attacks, are not people I waste my time with. So, welcome to my Ignore list. Have a nice and safe life, and work on that denial. Over and out.

 

So, instead of apologizing for your reckless post, instead of simply saying "sorry I was wrong", you're going to double down with a baseless attempt at authority that somehow you're credible here. You literally don't understand HIPAA and yet here you are trying to lecture us on your authority to comment. Laughable. Show this post to your HR department. If you have a job by the EOD, I will be surprised. But thanks for playing.

Oh, and just because, and this is something you can look for on the forums. I have so far had three folks who were infected in the family, all the same family. The other two survived, and are now healthy. Same hospital, same attendings, etc. Two, (one of whom had a significant pre existing condition ) both walked out of the hospital, after both testing positive at the same time my male relative did, and then both testing negative for the virus twice just like my relative who died. All three received the same treatments, the same care, and the only difference was that one of them ultimately died, not from covid, but from his preexisting condition. It seems you are entirely unwilling to respect that you have entirely too little information to make an informed prognosis, or that you insist that you can credibly offer one on the internet. Of course, if you were the physician you described, you'd know that to be both illegal and frankly dangerous.

It's like you claim to be conservative when clearly you are not. The facts aren't on your side here, no matter how much protestation you dissemble...

 

I had a friend die from this horror. Yes he was 70 but he was in good health other than back issues.
He fought it for weeks. Was virus free but was dealing with the cytokines storm it provoked.

he died of a heart attack several weeks after testing negative for the virus. The virus killed him

I have another friend who had a bad bout with the virus. Late 50s and no real health issues.

After being virus free she took a turn.. lung embolisms, seizures, stroke. She nearly died and HAD she died... the virus would have been the cause

 

You cannot state this as a fact because you do not how many people died this year - or how many people died in 2019.
You --assume-- the deaths form all other causes will be the same as 2019, but you have no rational basis for doing so.

 

Sorry for your loss. Perhaps their family will get the chance to join the class action and take on the CCP in court for their loss.

 

That nonsense doesn’t change the fact that they were virus free when the most serious complications hit

 

So, help us to understand that forensic linkage. Show the work. If there was no virus, what created the additional damages? Did the damage happen while infected and take a while to exhibit? If these were concurrent with the infection, why not treat it? The basic failure here seems to be able to treat underlying issues, or if as you assert, additive degradation or disease during the infection, why not ask why these aren't being treated, and those who are potentially long term casualties aren't being warned, or treated for these additional morbidities?

 

Jesus christ dude. The virus damages the lungs, sometimes the heart, sometimes the brain. It causes the immune system to attack the body. It causes a cytokine storm.

Are you seriously that uninformed?

 

Nah. I'm asking for your assertion to have some citation of actual evidence. And should there be evidence, to produce the treatment plan, or efforts produced to mitigate these concerns, if demonstrable. you can't just say, it causes, laundry list of stuff that is entirely unrelated to the disease of the virus to produce this "storm" without having to demonstrate the initiation or the mitigation potential of stopping or lessening the storm. You seem to have forgotten basic treatment plans actually have to address this. So, where is your work?

hers' my thought, and just my opinion here. Since the cytokine storm wasn't what killed my relative, and the underlying condition did, it is unlikely that you could convince me that his death was indeed covid related. Sorry, just the facts. I could be convinced that there might be long term effects, but whatever those are, they need to show some pathway that causes these declines so that treatment might arrest them. I expect that these haven't been documented or otherwise transcended the hypothesis stage yet. So, at least be honest though. In those cases where, for example, death by car accident, death by poisoning, etc can be eliminated from the count, and then those absent other co-morbidities be counted, which was the case in the study that is being discussed found.

If you feel there is a value in continuing to count literally everything, your method isn't scientific by any estimation. it does fuel fear though. And if that is your only goal, you're doing a bang up job on it.

Oh, and since we are now in a new year of flu season, perhaps we should resent the counts, just like we do for every other disease. The "never ending clock" method would quickly show you that there are far more deadly things to worry about. Like Cancer, Heart Disease, etc. So why just this? Is its only goal to create fear so folks will become dependent? I think so. And here you are, supporting that.

 

You KNOW that covid does damage to the lungs.

Obviously you're fitting your narrative to your belief and bias system.

Whatever

 

Are you seriously that well indoctrinated in this time of universal deception?

Wait, don't answer that. I think I already know the answer because it's bloody obvious after all these months.

 

I don't know what you think you're talking about but I've SEEN what this thing does.

 

So have I, over 10 months now. Many dozens of friends sick, some strong symptoms some mild symptoms, still nobody dead, all of them going on about their lives.

In the spirit of honest discussion, I acknowledge that some have died, but it's just nobody I know.

More in the spirit of honest discussion, I also acknowledge that the stats have been cooked since the beginning. You won't acknowledge that, and you won't even discuss the matter of quality of life for those still here.

 

What!?!

Of course not. I'm saying if you died from a heart attack, that's what you died from - a heart attack. The heart attack was caused by high blood pressure. Therefore the death certificate would look like this:

Part I - Cause of Death
Line 1 - Immediate cause of death: Heart attack
Line 2 - Underlying cause of death: High blood pressure

Now, if - at the same time - you had Covid-19, then that would be noted in Part II - Other Conditions which may have contributed to but are not a cause of death.

If you had Covid-19 in the past but recovered, and did not have it when you died, then it would not be mentioned in Part II.

 

Nope. Its right there if you look in the right place. They even tell you where.

Again, we all get what you are doing. You are trying to distract from the fact that your little fantasy is unravelling. So, rather than accept you are wrong you are trying to pretend that the data on excess deaths doesn't exist. No one is surprised, least of all me. I basically predicted something like this at the start.

 

The CDC data on deaths last year & this year has already been provided for you. They don't just wait for the end of the year to collate the figures, they track them week by week. They provide figures with and without COVID. So, they can say what the figures look like relative to last year and so far there are several hundred thousand extra deaths compared to the same time last year.

There really isn't anything difficult about this, but I'll spell it out again in dot point form.

*There are several hundred thousand more deaths in America this year compared to the same time last year.
*The rapid spike in deaths over what would normally be expected begins at exacrly the point COVID deaths began to rise rapidly.
*This number is about 20%-25% higher than the recorded number of COVID deaths.
*There are similar (if not identical) spikes in deaths in a number of other nations hit hard by COVID.

If people want to convince themselves that this is all some incredible coincidence taking place across multiple nations, all of whom are faking COVID deaths at the same time a similarly large number of people over and above normal deaths are all suddenly dying of non-COVID related causes, that is up to them. People believe all manner of fantasies. Just don't try to pretend there is a factual basis to this fantasy. There isn't. The facts say that COVID has killed over 200,000 Americans and excess death figures suggest that the official figure is either correct or an undercount.

 

Still can’t find it can you