ABRAHAMIC GOD of the BIBLE, is the Creator

Josh McDowell Quoted by Tosca I

FACT #1: BROKEN ROMAN SEAL

1. We only have 'Matthews' account for this. Pilate would not have handed a Roman guard over to the Jews. The seal would have been a Jewish seal - not a Roman Seal. The guard at the tomb would have been the Temple Guard. Can anyone really imagine Pilate degrading Roman soldiers to guarding the tomb of a Jew.
2. The evidence for the above to me is this.
a. NO Roman soldier would EVER take a bribe. Regardless of what the Jews might say to Pilate in their favour, those soldiers were doomed. Roman discipline would be upheld. Off with their heads. So they had nothing to gain, and everything to lose.
b. When the women were going to the tomb were they going to break open a Roman Seal? Not on your life. Now a Jewish seal was different. Under Jewish rites they could genuinely get away with rolling the stone away and performing their ritual. Had it been Roman, they too were doomed.

We don't know what happened. No one does. no one was there. How about this.

There was no guard. Matthew got it from 'this story that has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day'. Matt. 28:15 . Decades later.

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A lead is something investigators follow - it's an information that opens the door to investigation. To determine if the lead has any value is what investigations are for.

My point, exactly!




Thus....you cannot dismiss the evidence based on your hypothetical scenario about the 5 witnesses who told a person (who identified and wrote what they'd said in a letter). That letter is a lead to proper, conscientious investigations, and investigators can question the author of the letter, and pursue the 5 witnesses to verify what they'd seen.

It would be sloppy investigation if they never contacted those 5 people to verify.

 

Addition to above.

Try this. There was no guard. Jesus family quietly came and took the body away to a family tomb. There his body was anointed and left to decay. Then his bones were put in an ossuary.
No fuss, family secret.

 

Paul didn't see the actual Resurrection.....but he was spoken to by the risen Christ.




Acts 9

Saul’s Conversion

9 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.
3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”

“Yes, Lord,” he answered.

11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”

13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.
Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem

Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus.




Jesus talked to Paul, and because of that Paul was converted! Why wouldn't he?
Did he have to see the actual Resurrection to know that Jesus had risen from the dead?

Do you know the history of Paul? Do you know what he did when he was known as, Saul of Tarsus?


I'm telling you....of all witnesses to Jesus risen from the grave, Paul - being a very hostile witness to the point that he pursued and persecuted Christians - is the most convincing of all.

It changed him instantly! From a hostile non-believer to disciple.

 

Fine tuning is putting the cart before the horse.

If you were driving down the road and you saw a pothole filled to the top with water, would you reason out that the pothole was created specifically with that shape and depth to be able to hold that exact amount of water?

Or would logic dictate that the water conformed to the shape and depth it was given?

 

You mean the writers of the New Testament made the story of Jesus fit the prophecies. We have zero evidence those stories are actually true.

 

The Bhagavad Gita of Hinduism does the same thing. Why do you not worship Vishnu?

 

So the Bible says...with no corroborating evidence...and we only have Paul's word to go on...and he immediately began contradicting things the Gospels say Jesus taught...

Why should anyone believe the Paul story to be true?

 

Nobody corroborates that....it's only Paul who claims it.

 

Obviously more than you. Paul stayed in Damascus a few days and then went to Arabia. He returned to Damascus later and had to escape 'King' Aretas . He did not go to Jerusalem for 3 years. When he did go the disciples would have little to do with him except Peter and James, Jesus brother. Then he spent 14 years in Arabia before returning to Jerusalem where he was accepted when Barnabas went with him. OK?. But of course you know that. You've studied.

Saul was born in the Free City of Tarsus to parents who had obviously pleased the Romans to be given free citizenship which passed to Saul. It is said that they came from Palestine originally. They must have had some influence for him to be given the tutorship of Gamaliel in Jerusalem. As a Roman citizen Saul had advantages that the disciples, as Jews, did not. Thus he was able to get out of scrapes that would have seen Jews severely punished. The Jews had no right to punish him or try him, except on religious grounds. The Romans only could try him for crimes against Rome, and in a Roman court. And, as you know, only he, as a Roman citizen could appeal to Caesar. Paul used this citizenship to advantage on several occasions, and it helped him save lives.

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You can tell me all you like. Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Paul, Mohammed, and several later people have all had 'visions' and 'experiences'. Who is right? You want to believe Paul. Personally I treat all visions with more than a little bit of scepticism. Visions, prophecies? They have caused too many problems in the world.

 

Okay....the obvious tie you have been playing would be that Mike is the Bible(s) and Jesus in your analogy...and thus the trial represents evaluation of these things to see if they would win in trial. You have pretty much attempted to create scenarios where it tries to make enough sense to even GO TO trial and failed to do so. Now we get to the point where you must defend even the investigation process as something to consider as proof on concept.

Heres the thing....for 2000+ years people have searched for useable data on this and come up empty handed. I would recommend avoiding the whole court idea and sticking to faith and belief.

 

How can anyone take you serious? Paul was not around during the resurrection. Never met Jesus in his entire life. And you claim he was an eye witness?
You just keep failing in your own thread.

 

Folks like Tosca try to put out that "The entire Bible is provable historical and scientific fact"....

something NOBODY has been able to prove for 2000 years (or less, given the true age of the Bible and its "construction")....not even Christian theologicans or Church scholars.

is in fact an obvious sign that those people's faith is WEAK....they want Science or History to "prove" that "God is real" and "The Bible is true"....

because they are incapable of accepting it on faith alone. It is their own DOUBTS that push them into this idea that "Christianity must be PROVEN by objective/scientific analysis."

 

The topic is proof God of Abraham is the creator of the Universe. With the bible as the main source. If you can't prove the bible, you are starting with nothing. So you can't dismiss the bible questions when asked. Or you can have the thread closed for lack of proof.

 

Then you posted a lie when you said Paul was an eye witness to the resurrection.
Still, more reason to have doubt about things in this thread.

 

Funny. Paul's vision, even if he had one, highly doubtful, could have been Satan. Since Saul would've been one of Satan's greatest allies on earth when persecuting christians, why not take it further, proclaim he converted and lead them astray from the real teachings Jesus taught.
That would be brilliant on the part of Satan.
If the job of Satan is to win more souls than God.

 

I figure that if there is a god.
And if he wanted his existence to be indisputable
He would be managing things here on earth in a much clearer way
Since that us not happening
Either there is no god
Or he wants his existence to remain a matter of faith, not proof

 

He certainly wouldn't be the "God of the Bible".....a mentally deranged, contradictory, even un-intelligent figure at best.

That "God" created the plants...BEFORE creating the Sun.

That "God" drowns the world in water....rather than just creating a plague to kill the evil people (something He is shown capable of doing in later chapters of the Bible).

That "God" orders not just genocide....but mass infanticide....and then supposedly later is a "God of mercy, God of love"...and of course a "God who loves the little children....blah, blah, blah".

A "God" who due to Rules that HE HIMSELF came up with...has to have his Son be tortured and killed for HIM to forgive the rest of us.

The "God of the Bible".....is insane.

 

You're attempting to prove the bible with the bible. Being that the bible is inconsistent, how can it prove anything?

 

To me it kinda seems obvious that jesus is some how an after thought of creation
A desparate fix for a creation that just was not working out
But if that is the case.... What does that say about the creator?

this dilemma detail seems irreconcilable
And main response is usually
We cannot understand the ways of god
Although it seems we are pretty certain we do understand gods views about gay marriage and abortion

 

That's too simplified. That's not a good example either. Anyone could have dug up that hole.

We're not talking about JUST a pothole of water. It's about how everything is in place just rightly so, to make it possible for
life to exist.

What other place in the universe is TEEMING with life? Read that post again.

 

Do you know how ridiculous and illogical that sounds?

Knowing He'll eventually be crucified.....who do you think volunteered to play the part of the Messiah?

And all the NT Apostles - were all in cahoots to pull off the biggest scam ever made! They even willingly died for that scam.
Even all the other witnesses to the miracles of Jesus lied about him....they became Christians and willingly met their martyrdom for a lie!

What's in it for them?

- - - Updated - - -

You've got to try to digest what's posted.

Don't ignore my arguments. I'll have to ignore such juvenile responses.

 

Ananias did.



....and Paul is the most convincing of all witnesses.

Why would a hostile non-believer such as he suddenly convert and become a disciple?
He left his reputable position to become a disciple and spread the Gospel (and faced all sorts of sufferings and eventual martyrdom for it).

 

Why did he suddenly leave that privileged life to become a disciple of Christ, whose followers he was pursuing to persecute?
It was a sudden change....and he willingly died for it too. There has to be such a compelling reason for him to suddenly
change his position.

Then you should understand how some Books made it to the Bible, and others didn't.

 

I think you missed the point. It is the "stories" about Jesus that were made to corroborate.

Almost everything about the life of Jesus mirrors various messianic leaders from the past.

The same holds true of the Bible. The "Genesis" creation story is a rehash of Sumerian and other Near East Myth.

The Israelite's believed in a Pantheon. Their form of monotheism was that they only worshiped one God. The creator God was "El (Enlil, Elyon, Ellil)

YHWH was one of El's numerous Sons (70 I believe).

At the end of the day these are just stories and there is no way to know whether any of them has any basis in fact.