I actually agree with this, which is why I think the gay meme is more credible than him being far-sighted.
Sounds like 'gay activism' to me..but since I didnt write it, the responsibility of the interpretation must be on the individual reading it....but, gay activists are hurting their cause by trying to revisit history and make everything about homosexuality.
Here is the case made by a straight Episcopal bishop. Not really about gay activism, as I never hear the gay movement bringing this out as justification. Just interesting speculation about one of the great mysteries in scripture.
Obviously, Bruce, "we're" going to have to have an intervention and 'deprogram' you.....as You havnt come 'that far,' baby>>>
Where am I supposed to be going? Since I have not endorsed this speculation as confirmed in any way, the only place I see myself going is toward an open mind. If you have the opinion of homosexuality that you have expressed, why would this be uncomfortable in any way? Couldn't Paul have been one of those who simply "were" gay, and then fought against it his entire adult life?
As one who has read the Bible cover-to-cover many times and studied it extensively, I never got 'that interpretation' out of it!! It would take a 'biased mind' to read it as such....
Me too. And I came to that consideration before I ever read it anywhere. I later found out that many people have speculated the same possibility. Just because you didn't consider it, why do all those that did have to be "biased" in your mind? Because they thought of a possibility you hadn't? Would a biased mind reject possibilities that are uncomfortable?
Ppl 'reading into' the scriptures does water them down and make them to no effect....again, I see such as 'bias' and not the obvious....was Paul disingenuous? Would he hide his homosexual tendencies & become a hypocrite? Again, too many ppl try to interpret the scriptures according to their own agenda and end up discrediting any nobility in them...
The point is we don't know what he is hiding, but he admits it is something and he refuses to share it in his writings. I brought no agenda to it. It just occurred to me that it could fit the narrative. I don't see that it impacts the nobility of scripture at all.
I know that he wouldnt talk about his personal revelations, but.. Sorry Bruce, but to be faithful to myself and what I perceive as what the Spirit has shown me, you wont get me coming over on this one..
I'm not "over" either. I don't claim it to be the facts. I find it plausible as an explanation, based on Paul's personality and his shame regarding this particular peccadillo. How would it impact your faith if Paul struggled with homosexuality, and persevered in his battle?
He, being a Pharisee of Pharisees, knowing the OT scriptures, would be hypocritical if not in just ignoring or discussing his sexual identity but to offer single and marriage advice. Being a 'God made' eunuch as he said he was, he would not have to 'struggle' with his homosexuality! He would be impotent and ineffective. Bogus twisting or reading into the scriptures of that which is not 'there!' So what's next, the Holy Spirit is 'female' as being the 'comforter?' Sounds like a feminine thingie to me....Are you into the God is a he/she/it even tho He talks about Fathers & Sons and no gender in heaven?!
My vision of god doesn't involve having a penis or a vagina. We know that whatever this affliction of Paul's is, he most definitely is tormented by it.
I dont get that;;; 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 9 And he hath said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Wherefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. Sounding like empathetic projection on your part?
"Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. " This is what proceeds your verse. He is tormented by it. He may rejoice for his torment as it gives him an opportunity to measure up to God's calling, but it torments him nonetheless. This is pretty clear in the verses. He enjoys the opportunity, but is still tormented by the affliction, whatever it may be. It's also interesting that he is given a "messenger of Satan" by God.
Yeah, goes back to my thinking that God uses Satan as His tool to accomplish His purposes! To make a decision to accept Good there must be an alternative, aka Evil. One could say that God uses Satan to do His 'dirty work!' As He also 'allowed' Satan to do with Job. Is it in God's "character" to punish the Righteous?!
Actually, yes it is. That's exactly what he did to Job, the most righteous man on earth according to scripture. And He did it all to win a wager with Satan. There is no indication in scripture that it was for any other reason.
I think you could label all this as 'torment,' but again thru persecutions & afflictions, not a 'personal problem!" 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as one beside himself) I more; in labors more abundantly, in prisons more abundantly, in stripes above measure, in deaths oft. 24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day have I been in the deep; 26 in journeyings often, in perils of rivers, in perils of robbers, in perils from my countrymen, in perils from the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in labor and travail, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. - - - Updated - - - Satan approached God & 'demanded' his due...God merely 'bragged' on His righteous servant & allowed Satan his due...
I'm sure whatever the thorn in his side was, he considered it a persecution or affliction. Not sure of the point of this one.
We're still talking about Job, eh? He is Sainted and immortal! It's a testament to enduring suffering and God's grace. You did see that in the end Job was richly rewarded, right? By the way--have you READ Job? There's no wager. God simply said, "hey--check out Job, he's a righteous dude." And Satan said, "yeah, right...he has a nice house and is livin' large, that's why Job loves you." All God said was, "Job is in your power--just don't hurt him." Where's the wager? Satan is the "god of this world." We all are in Satan's reach. We all can choose to love God or curse Him. Job worshipped God. There was no wager; Job was a righteous man (a little whiny at times, but righteous nonetheless).
Read it many times. Satan challenges God that Job will break. God turns him loose to do anything he wants except kill him to prove he will remain faithful. You can call it something other than a bet, but that's what it comes down to. If someone killed your entire family, but was nice enough to give you a new one, would you feel like they blessed you? Mind you, you would have to endure incredible torture to get this replacement family. When he asks God why this happened, he is screamed at by God and told it is none of his business. Yes, I have read Job. Have you? - - - Updated - - - I'm sorry. I don't. Not being obtuse. I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
Well I don't know; but seeing none of those children were ever really mine to begin with I'd be hard pressed to justify feeling otherwise, wouldn't I? What makes you think God ever acts like your mother? The problem being...?
My final attempt in discerning what a "thorn in the flesh" would be: A thorn is an 'external irritant,' as are persecutions & afflictions, & does irritate the flesh when pricked from the 'outside'. If Paul's problem was 'internal,' such as poor vision or homosexuality, he would say something like "a pain within me" or a 'weakness within me,' etc. etc. Why use the terminology of 'a thorn?!' A thorn is but a 'minor external irritant,' not a dire life or death situation! His continuous persecutions where ever he went were a nuisance but did not inhibit his ministry.......yabbady yabbady, that's all folks. (you too Bruce)
