Satan does challenge God--that much is true. That statement is NOT true on a couple of points. #1 God did NOT "turn Satan loose." Satan just got done telling God that he's been roaming around the earth--Satan wasn't captive, he had full reign on earth. #2 God did NOT do ANYTHING accept say how righteous Job was. He did not do anything to attempt to "prove" anything to Satan. God simply said, "all that he (Job) has is in your power..." This is OBVIOUS since Satan was loosed on the Earth at the Fall of Man. The world IS ALREADY in Satan's grip since the Original Sin. Stating the OBVIOUS is not attempting to "prove" anything. I How is it a bet? God is Sovereign and Satan is a fool. It's a "no-duh" proposition that Satan the fool decided to undertake because he's stupid and prideful. "Screamed at?" You're being dramatic. #1 Job is greatly blessed being one of the few Biblical epitomes of pure faithfulness. #2 God did NOTHING to harm Job, Satan did. #3 The things of this world...we must learn to not be so attached to. Loss is a great teacher--God brings good out of tragedy. As Jesus said in Luke 14, "[26] "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." #4 Gods ways are beyond man. He sees with the Eternal perspective--we see a minute pinprick of time. You know that blind man elephant story? More than once. Perhaps you should read it again with an open heart. 'Those with ears ought to hear' you know...
As a fable, it is a great story regarding faithfulness in spite of all obstacles. As history, it paints God as a heartless, cruel and insecure tyrant.
I agree with your first point; your second point, I think, is the response of the reader, not inherent in the text.
I read Job as a 'moral story' to explain why the Righteous are observed as being both blessed and but also may suffer, and that thru perseverance and faithfulness, God (who is the good guy) restores what Satan (the bad guy) has taken away. As well as your friends may not be your comforters during those trying times, as pointing to hidden sin for the time of the testing of one's faithfulness. There most likely was a real Job who seemed to unfairly suffer, but his story was put into literature to give a 'worst case' & exaggerated scenario while teaching moral beliefs.
No by no means...that's what Bruce has been alluding to. Where to me, having read it w/o the bias of men the 1st time, it was all very plain about his continuing persecutions & afflictions where ever he went were nuisances to his ministry.
I always thought it was eye trouble--he was blinded for a time after the Vision on the road to Damascus, and then I remember somewhere they was talk of his awful, large handwriting...I can't remember where that was....
Yes he was initially blinded, but the poor vision thing came about in one of his epistles where he said that he was writing in big letters, but in context it was to emphasize the point he was making at the time.
Full context of the quote: Galatians 6 6 Brethren, even if a man be overtaken in any trespass, ye who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; looking to thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if a man thinketh himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4 But let each man prove his own work, and then shall he have his glorying in regard of himself alone, and not of his neighbor. 5 For each man shall bear his own burden. 6 But let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not be weary in well-doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith. 11 See with how large letters I write unto you with mine own hand. 12 As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they compel you to be circumcised; only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For not even they who receive circumcision do themselves keep the law; but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But far be it from me to glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. 17 Henceforth, let no man trouble me; for I bear branded on my body the marks of Jesus. 18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen. ' **** Sounds like 'those of the circumcision' were harassing the flock, AGAIN!
Unfortunately the "good guy" enters into this not to test Job. He already knows Job will be faithful. He allows these incredible tortures of the man to prove to others in the heavens that Job will remain faithful, glorifying Himself. Satan takes things away with the permission of God. God releases him to torture Job. But I am talking about believing in it in its details. As a fable, or parable, it works. As history, it's horrifying.
Do you have a wife and kids? Go tell them you wouldn't care if they were killed and replaced tomorrow. Let me know how that goes. - - - Updated - - - Without the bias of men? What does that mean?
That sounds like a 'cynics' version of what was going on! How come I never came out with that conclusion 'on my own?!" Btw, are you also against refining gold with fire to get 'pure gold?' Same principle, knowing that Job's faith was greater than ever after his time of trials & testing! Being faithful to God is not for 'panty waists!!'
Wouldn't he have interpreted any of these things as external? Being spiritual attacks on his physical being? I have to disagree with your characterization of a "thorn in the side" as a minor external irritant. The term refers to something that is a constant torment that never goes away. He uses the word torment, and not casually I think. Commentators have discussed this little bit of scripture for centuries, and I can think of none of them that think this burden of Paul's was no big deal to him. It obviously was a very big deal to him, and it tormented him his entire life.
Simply, no man taught me how to see that...it was obvious to this 'casual observer' while seeking truth as I read...
Personally, I do look at the story as a legend in a sense--like how there likely really was a King Arthur, but the details of the story may be enhanced in some cases to make a point about morality. Same concerning The Iliad... I'm not one of those Christians who feel her Faith is threatened by reason. I see no contradiction in the Bible because I view it as a work of Holy Literature--not a Divine Being.
I see no change in his faith. It was complete and total from end to end of the story. That's kind of the point. Maybe when you read it you were still a big C Catholic and were approaching it with your own bias.
I admire that. Good for you Felicity. - - - Updated - - - Why do you think it was any different for me? Because something different was plain to me?
Sounds like this story hit a nerve with you..did you fail the time of trial & testing in your own life??
Don't do that OD. You are above that. We are having a good discussion. We really don't disagree. Don't make it personal like that. I seriously think more of you than that.
That was a serious question meant to get to the nut of your anger concerning God and His being "unjust and a Tyrant" Do you feel that God still owes you an apology? Seriously!
What in Hell for? If they're good people, would they want me to curse God and die in the event of their demise?
