An Atheist still Waiting for an Answer

You actually never answered mine.
Since god could see all of this ahead of time, why create these horrors? What was the thrill in creating these future torments? Or do you not think that God could see what would happen? Do you believe him not to be omniscient? If you do, then he was aware of the pain and torment that he was letting loose.

Stop being paranoid about being flamed or abused or persecuted. If you keep yourself in check and have a civil tone, you will most likely receive one in return.

We're just trying to have the conversation. Do you think god is omniscient?

 

So god is only omniscient when he feels like it? That's your best argument?

Ok, Neut.

 

So now you want to play the role of Satan and attempt to raise yourself above the throne of God and attempt to force God to answer your questions of why didn't God do this or that. You are attempting to subvert the authority of God, and that is where your problem has its foundation. You simply don't want to submit yourself to that authority of God, and that is probably the reason why you left the pulpit. Do you think God is Omniscient?

 

#1 - Don't lecture me, espcially about civil tone. You just work on your civil tone.

#2 - Being repeatedly called a rapist, compared to Hilter, a slaver, etc, is not paranoia, it the reality of engaging yur co-religionists. Of course, last time an atheist raised the scepter of incredulity, they were challenged to a man, to go see for themselves. Not a one could find a single instance of theis behavior occuring - not a one. In less than 30 seconds, I found JUST ONE atheist slying, and not so slyly, implying that we were a bunch of rapists. 500. Just one atheist. (Oddly, that particular atheist doesn't consider himself an atheist either? Really, really odd).

Ergo, its safe to assume that, exactly as charged, atheism is driven by dogmatic adherence to propoganda rather than objective analysis and a search for the truth.

#3 - Your question has been answered repeatedly. You just don't like the answer - which is not my problem. Again, who causes the things that are evil? If your answer is that people die? Well, you were born into this world with the knowledge that you would someday leave it.

In the meantime, as you are director and everything, I am sure you know what it is like to lead a large organization? Well, a Battalion has about 800 people in it, a Brigade, about 5,000. In the grand scheme of things, with billions on the planet, that is not that many people. In fact, these are some of the fittest, best disciplined people on earth. Yet, not a week goes by in these comparatively small organizations goes by when a striking event happens. There is the death of family member at least every week. There are divorces, every week. Marriages, the birth of children, Soldiers arrested for everything from the stupid (a pissed off cop) to murder, their people diagnosed with illneses, suicides, rapes, false accusations, beatings, etc. etc. etc. I doubt there is anything, within that small select group of individuals, that I have not seen in my life thus far.

That is life. THat turbulence is life. You were sent here to learn and grow, and at the end of that journey, you know that commands are right - not because God says they are, but because you have had the opportunity to disagree and explore for yourself. People who rape? Well, they get caught and sent to prison eventually. People who bully find themselves ostracized and oftentimes socialy maladjusted. People who get hit with disease often over come it and discover that they have resources and reserves they never knew were there, they discover that their family is closer and more loving having fought for what they truely valued. There is the choice of suicide, which leaves behind a devestated family and friends, etc. etc.

These are the fruits of free will. And they are freeby, for the worst consequences that can befall someone with honest exploration is that they return to their father with a great sense of their own chastizement. Only a few, a precious few, will choose to fully reject the father and pursue the adversary into oblivion. But it is a choice.

What you call evil is the reality of life, the reality of free will be exercised without restraint as we all attempt to figure things out at various stages of understanding, wisdom, and empathy. That is not evil - that is a great and invaluable gift - and I for one am immeasureably greatful that Heavenly Father gave me this opportunity to bumble about and make mistakes, to atone for them, to bump into pure evil on a few occassions and see it for the vileness that it is, but more importantly, I am greatful that I have had the opportunity to meet many of the people I have met along the journey, people wiser and less than myself who have striven valiantly and honestly to find the path and share their journey with courage, conviction, and fellowship. I am awestruck by this opportunity, and I publically thank my Heavenly Father for the opportunity given me on this Earth.

In sharp contrast, atheists are looking for any excuse out there to call humanity and life - evil

Bravo atheism!

 

No, God can do whatever the hell he wants - and you ain't it. So quite pretending you are, or that you have some special insight into what goes does or why. You don't.

Or are you now claiming the gift of Prophecy? Are you Moses? Solomon? Mohammed? Or Jesus himself.

<<< Mod Edit: Flamebaiting >>>

 

life itself is experienced subjectively. faith is entirely subjective as it is based on 'spiritual experiences'; the ultra subjective AKA imagination.

without first knowing the 'what' of a thing, the 'why' is unattainable, our lives have no meaning unless we know what we are, what our universe is. we do not know these things, there is no evidence to support the exact truth, the necessity of the 'what', therefore debating the 'why', or assuming the 'why', however natural a course of action, is pointless, and is really only a public self-admittance that one has closed one's mind off to the truth, however unknowable it may be.

therefore, i have concluded that this sub-forum has no purpose, or value, since no human is capable of an objective perspective.

 

I thought you had declared you are the prophet?
Ah well.
I have not posited an answer. I have put forth a question. You seem to think that questioning god is heresy, but some of your favorite biblical heroes are famous for it, and valued very highly by god because of it. Moses, David, Daniel, Job, Lot and many others have spirited intercourse with god, and god even capitulates to their arguments at times.
I claim no special insight into the ways of god.
Do you?
I do claim to have a careful discernment of scripture, however. Not perfect, but careful. That's a very different thing.

So you are sticking with that "as omniscient as I wanna be" argument? That's all you got?

 

I love the way you spin this. It is completely inaccurate and blatantly so. Definitions 2 and 3 can clearly be applied to natural disasters.

"I see your true colors...shining through."

 

I fail to see why it cannot be both. A natural disaster is natural, and evil. Dont try to pull naturalistic fallacy (claiming that natural cannot be evil), because its a fallacy.

I am talking about natural disasters. By pulling manmade evil into this, you are being offtopic.

Are you saying God could not create universe in such way that it would not require any natural disasters to function? Then he is not omnipotent, QED. Or he could, but did not do it? Then he is malevolent, QED.

Those answers are fallacious.

False. Natural evils and most diseases are not our choices.

If god could do something that would make the people suffer less, AND would not hamper their free will (so your argument is again invalid), but does not do it, then he is not omnipotent, or malevolent.

If gods plan includes preventable suffering, then he is malevolent, or not omnipotent (he is forced by something to include it there).

Yup, this is simply denying the existence of evil. Unless you follow borderline nihilistic religions its not an argument. God could easily create universe where you dont need suffering to "learn and grow".

 

You do? Then why is your interpretation so strickingly ... atheist? Why do you support Jesus Mythers? Why do you support fruit of the spirit attacks? Why do you claim that the standards of the Bible do not apply to you? Why do you doubt everything in the Bible, taking every minor claim and treating it as fact? Why doubt even the letters of Paul, and then, as most are clearly authentic, deny that they provide a method to look at the Synoptic Gospels with a critical eye - like most actual scholars do?

Furthermore, as you do above, yu clearly misquote quite deliberately. Go ahead and show where I claim to be a Prophet. Go right ahead. Or did you spirit of discernment lead you down the incorrect path in a comment whose intent was clearly to indicate the repetive nature of atheist arguementation?

Well, therein lies the rub, REAL discernment is a spiritual gift. True discernment comes at the behest of the Holy Spirit. Its in the Bible. Tell me, how does an atheist, who calls himself an agnostic, access the Holy Spirit?

A better question, how is it that your careful analysis of the Bible leads you to a lock step agreement with common atheist propoganda? Why are you in disagreement with Christians and actual scholarship? Why are in in total agreement, and so often defend the antics of atheists (who have never even picked up a Bible, but get their cliff noptes from random atheist web sites and propoganda)? How does your careful discernment produce ... atheism?

I'd really like to know how the Bible supports atheism more than Christianity? That, at face value, seems the exact opposite of discernment.

 

Maybe you should read it, because I am not claiming that natural disasters are good - its you claiming that they are bad. Its you imbueing them with morality, and me treating them as ... not evil.

In short, I am glad that the substance of your arguement is now that when a predator kills its prey - its actually commiting a fallacy.

Its neither good nor evil, but the random tossing out of something you just discovered but did not read is a rebuttal?

I though atheists were not afraid of tough questions? And the subject is evil, the fact that you want to ignore the reality of evil while discussing the problem of evil is noted. And cowardly.

Seriously kiddo, you sound just like Wolverine. Are you a sock puppet?

Why would he? Is there a reason you keep avoiding the fact that we all die? That the substance of your arguement is that people die from a natural disaster, and that this is somehow 'evil'? But is you die of other 'natural' causes, like in your sleep, its ... er, evil as well?

Again, atheist avoids the tough questions.

So sayeth the atheist again avoiding the tough questions.

Really, the famine in Somalia, caused by the infighting that lead to the destruction of infrastructure is not man made, eh? When Mohammed Farah Ided hoarded food that lead to the mass starvation of hundreds of thousands, that was natural? North Korea. Tell me, why are floods in Pakistan so utterly devestating, but the same monsoon floods in Inida ... not? Can you tell me why an earth quake in South America, within the last week, physically kills no one? (One person died of a heart attack). Why did thousands die in Iran?

So, we as humans know that flood happen, but if you are stupid, and decide to live on a flood plane without insurance ... its a cruel God's fault that his method of replenishing the soil ran afdould of your stupid decision - one you knew about before you build your home?

In short, the effects of natural disasters on men are almost all the result of human choices. In many communities, farms, etc, are allowed in the fertile valleys, but homes must be on higher ground - managing the effects of flooding.

Now, in Washington State, we know that eventually the Volcanos here are going to erupt. What happend when Mt. Saint Helens erupts and it flow TOWARD SEATTLE this time? We know the chennels the pyroclastic flows are going to take, and greedy man looking for a profit has build houses and infrastructure on all of them. So when the pyroclastic flows comes and kills thousands .... God should either have eliminated free will ... or used magic to prevent our own stupidity from killing us? But allowing free will to play out is ... evil?

So, to atheists seeing evil everywhere, God id evil because he does not change the world on a whim to suit your every selfish desire?

Did it ever occur to you that God left these things in place to remind us of the consequence of hubris?

If the inetent of life is that we learn, tere must be consequences for our actions - period. No matter what system God puts in place, mewling atheists will find fault with it. Everyone else will consider natural diasters to be ... obvious, not evil.

Everyone but atheists will focus on moral question and actions that bely real evil. An atheist? He will call real evil off topic to the discussion of the problem of evil.

God allows you the choice to live on a volcano or not. If you do? Well, you are an idiot. Now if you live in a city and someone murders you? Well, that would be an act of evil.

Now, given free will, why would God suspend the method of replenishing the earths resources, while allowing Stalin's purges? Why would he suspend natural processes that sometime lead to diseases, but also sometimes lead to baterial strains the help us clean up oil spills? But allow WWII? Geoncide? Espcially as it is the ACTUAL acts of evil that you have summarily declared as off topic?

Free Will has consequences, and that reality is not inherently evil - or fallacious.

Yep, the guy that is calling actual evil off topic, is accusing others of avoiding evil.

Case proven, it is atheists who are incapable of answering the tough questions. Additionally, we see that their conclusions are the result of the deliberate exlcusion of evidence, coupled with frivilous and emotional accusations.

 

Two difficulties stand out in your response.
You think that if someone finds the bible wanting that they are an atheist. Are Buddhists atheist? Are Muslims? Of course not, but they, too, will have their problems with the inerrancy of the bible. Even many Christians do.
The second is that you have admitted that you have no interest in studying anything that would question bible authority, so your beliefs are self fulfilling as you refuse to expose yourself to anything that would question what you already want to believe.

 

What is causing it? Loads of things, almost as many causes as there are bad situations. Often, I have no idea what causes things. I could pick out anecdotes too: why do infants need to die from starvation or sickness or war, even if it is their parents' fault? When a person is born into crushing poverty in a country where economic mobility is all but impossible, is it really their fault if they suffer or even die due to it? I don't really blame god of course - why would I when I dont think he's real. If I ever do so, it is only ever for the sake of argument.

When a troll posts something accusing "Christians" or even "all Christians" of something, do you shrug it off thinking "he is talking about OTHER Christians and I am separate"?

Again, for the sake of argument I can happily grant that a god exists in order to examine what that might entail. And it turns out that the issue only even arises if anyone claims that Gods love is boundless. Free will or not - if my child tries to stick his finger in the electrical socket, I will use my superior strength to stop him. Why can't god do the same when grownups make bad choices?

 

You are claiming that obviously bad things that cause suffering, and would be considered highly immoral if commited by any human are not bad just because its nature, and not man that causes them. Hence you are comitting naturalistic fallacy. Whether something is natural or manmade has nothing to do with its moral value. And that applies to both calling things good/bad because they are natural/artificial, and calling them morally neutral just because they are natural. Nature is orthogonal to morality.

I am not ignoring the reality of evil, I have repeatedly acknowledged that god is not to blame for consciously intended manmade evil because of the free will. I dont know why are you always pulling this up.

Its you who is afraid of tough questions and ignores the reality of natural evil and manmade evil caused by mistakes or insufficient knowledge rather than conscious intent. There evils CANNOT be explained away by the free will argument, because preventing them would not hamper free will in any way. Thats why you resorted to belittling the impacts of this evil or even denying its existence, because you do not have any argument to explain it that would not make simultaneously omnipotent and omnibenevolent god logically impossible.

I repeat: Natural evils and most diseases are not our choices. What have manmade famines in common with this? We are talking about natural evils, not manmade ones, you are again offtopic.

Yes. He has the ability to stop the floods if they would cause suffering. If he does not do it, he is malevolent. Or are you saying he cannot do it?

Yes, using his magic to stop volcanic eruptions wont hamper our free will in any way. So why wont he do it? Isnt he omnibenevolent and omnipotent?

Not to mention that this argument can not address evil that people have no knowledge to avoid - like volcanic eruptions in ancient times (Vezuv), and most untreatable stochastic diseases today (cancer, autoimmune diseases, hereditary diseases...).

But god could have created us with the knowledge of the consequences. If he needs suffering to teach us these things, he is clearly not omnipotent.

Natural evils are not evil according to theists! Try to tell to the victims that their suffering is in fact not real!

So why did god create idiots, just to watch them suffer in his dangerous world? If some crazy scientist created retarded children just to observe their suffering in some dangerous experimental setting, he would be rightfully called an evil man.

You could argue that the latter would hamper our free will, so he cannot do so if free will is valuable. But yes, you have absolutely no argument why he does not do the former.

I am not avoiding intended manmade evil. You are avoiding evil that is not delibarately manmade.

 

I find it very interesting that when you are asked about the Fruits of the Spirit, you consider it an attack. Do you feel you are being attacked by admonishments coming from the pages of Galatians? If so, why? If not, where is the attack?

 

to vicariously ::::

before we review your question let us ask a question.
?? is your chosen name vicariously related to the word "vicar"??
interesting think about it.

now your question;;
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]

??? what is evil ???

more later.

vlad

 

Well, I am glad once again that you are deliberately misinterpreting what I say. Its a debate forum, not an ignore everyone and pontificate with whatever happens to be in my head forum.

Ergo, the reasons I know, not think, that you are an atheist is because of what you write, and then what you use to justify it. Are you the least bit shocked that EVERY other athest on this board considers himself an expert par excellence on this forum? Are you suprides that, like every other atheist on this forum, that you routinely dismiss arguementation that you find ... problematic? How does studying the Bible support the Jesus Myth when the unanimous conclusion of actual scholarship is that Jesus is legit? ONLY atheists doubt the historicity of Jesus - and self declared Biblical scholars who call themselves agnostic even as they adopt atheist propoganda.

This thread is another perfect example. The Problem of Evil has been around two thousand years, yet not even once - not even once - do you stop an atheist and remind him that the claim has been rebutted hundreds of times and that the idea is well rebutted in the Bible you find wanting ... but whose section conflict with your adoption of atheist propoganda, you ignore - just like an atheist.

The problem is not with the Bible - it with your constantly and deliberately misrepresenting it, being on the wrong side of both Christian and Secular Scholarship, that leads me to doubt what you call yourself.

Wish another exmple? The Problem of EVil is not specific to Christianity, and the concept on inerrency, and what you mean is a literal translation being inerrent - literalism, and yet you drag this same old atheist dead horse into the arguement? For what purpose?

What is your thesis statement?

What is your support?

What is your rebuttal?

Right you have none, you just want to kick Christians - which is anot an atheist, but a very agnostic thing to do?

 

Agh, the God of the Gaps arguement - funny how the tables are turned so quickly on an atheist.

We know what causes all natural disasters, and we have within our hot little hands the ability to nullify and/or avoid entirely. Tell me, if an earthquake happens in Antarctica - where no is - is it inherently evil? Yet eth same earth quake happening in Bangledesh is now ... the embodiment of evil? Because it kills people?

Now, if someone is murdered in Antarctica, is bad. The same thing any where else on the world. The problem with the atheist interpretation of the problem of evil is that they are making the stupid choices of humanity - evil. When in fact, by in large, they ar ethe results of bad, or otherwise unwise, choices. A freeway collapses in an earth quake? Because someone decided to take a short cut on costs or engineering ... greed - a simple sin causes the death, not the earth quake.

And now that we have adopted the God of the Gaps arguement, rather than a plapable and explanable explanation .... well, that's atheism for you.

Yep, I have never once bothered the mods with my thin skinned angst. When someone refers to Christians, in general, which atheists do all the time, I just rebut the premise. I defend all forms of Christianity, save extreme fundamentalism - Islam, Juddaism, etc.

I am glad that you acknowledge that the behavior is trolling though.

Once again, you assume that death is bad in the eyes of God - and are pointedly ignoring God plan - which is to give us life for a short time, and then return to him. Coming back to him a little early because you deliberately blew off your knowledge of electricy? Well, I am sure you will feel pretty stupid.

Now, lets say your son is addicted to drugs and slowly slipping away. He's an adult though, and has clearly made his choice to die in the throws of addiction? Do you kidnap him? Use your superior finanical and physical strength, to strap him to a table, and he dies in the throws of withdrawal? We are down here, for teh most parts, adults are we not? Do we use our superior strength to stop other adults from doing things we do not want them too? Yep - and how does that turn out?

Well, I have been in the middle of how that turns out, and that is where I have encourntered the reality of evil up close and personal - all because some men want dominion over other men unjustly. People are allowed to make their own errors, and sometimes - though rarely - it is worth actually fighting to stop some choices or enable others resisting legitimate injustice, which is funny ... because that is exactly what God does.

 

#1 - not all fruits of the spirit are apportionted to everyone, we all have talents.

#2 - I find it interesting that you ignore the spiritual gift of discernment.

#3 - I find it even more interesting that you thinking attacking people and shoving a deliberately misquoted and fictitious representation of someone else's faith is anything other but highly rude and offensive. Has anything good ever happened as a result of your fruit of the spirit attacks? Anything at all? Or has it resulted in universal revile? Which is exactly what the Bible says will happen when you attempt to use GOD'S authority unjustly.

And yet you demand civility from everyone else? Yep, atheist.

 

This entire post of yours does not address either of the points I made in my last post.
I don't have to accept the bible to believe in a god.
I don't have to conceive of god the way you do in order not to be an atheist.
You do not believe in studying any information other than that of people who are defending the beliefs you already have.

How does your post address any of these statements?

 

Yes, you are ignoring man made evil. So please stop denying it.

Additionally, why shoudl God have to remake the earth because you are stupid and build your house on a volcano? What an utterly selfish concept that forces larger than yourself do not magically re-arrange themselves for your convience - and are thus evil. In short, the problem of evil, from an atheist perspective is simply selfishness and hyperbolye.

Life is evil!!! Therefore I am an atheist who need to blame a God I do not believe in!!!!

Why do bad things happen? Never occured to Christians to answer that one ... therefore, atheists treat it as if it hasn't happened.

Now what was my thesis again? That ANOTHER atheist found this piece of propoganda and lazily dumped it on the forum? And now that he is being rebutted, is getting angry and demanding that evidence he doesn't like be declared insults? trolling? off topic?

And, in your atheistic knowledge of all things hard - what is it that is causing all these bad things to happen? There is no God is there?

But really, as you avoid the tough questions, I am sure that THIS time the problem of evil was about something other than just pissing on Christians? Which is why is graces so many atheist websites - all of which, as you did, ignore thousands of years of rebuttals to claim themselves supreme - until they are forced to defend the statement and rebut in an actual dialoge ... suddenly things are not so clear ... and we ned the mods help to maintain our positions rather than logic?

Exactly as predicted.

 

They are not called the Gifts of the Spirit, they are the Fruits of Him. In other words, those that are indwelt by the Holy Spirit will exhibit these traits, not be selectively gifted them.
I demand nothing of you. I am just curious why a Christian has not evolved into these traits, and actively rejects them, doesn't seek them in himself.
As you have been told many times, I am not an atheist. The problem lies in your misunderstanding of the words "atheist" and "agnostic". It has been explained to you many times. I can do no more for you.

 

None of those statement addres any of the points that I made, have made, and will continue to make.

Yep, I began life as an atheist, explored many religions and decided upon Christianity ... because I am a close minded bigot.

Is there any point in communicating with you BB? Is there any point is explaining why I arrive at a conclusion if you just stick your head in the sand and continue to tell me what I believe, how I think, how I arrived at my conclusions, all so you can take a dump on me repeatedly?

I am seriously considering just putting you on ignore, as clearly, you are already ignoring everything I wrote anyway, and I am clearly wasting my time attempting to treat you like a rational adult.

 

How did I dump on you in my last post?
Where is your anger coming from? It's not from me.

 

God's authority is not yours. And when you attempt to exercise it in unjust manners, lacking righteousness - in blows up in your face - as they should have taught you in Seminary. Now, the fact that you defend a tactic that has repeatedly done nothing but blown up in your face is compelling because? You seek to rationalize poor behavior - that is it.

Its no different that all the other trolls of atheism who run to the mod team because someone calls their arguement flamebait - happily ignoring the fact that they just called someone a rapist and a slaver.

In short, all the fruit of the spirit attacks are for you is an excuse, a poor one, to attempt, badly, to use someone's faith as an insult and/or weapon. And when you study the Bible with such ill intrent? I am sure everyone is fooled - so rationalize away, the only person you have to fool is you.

One more try BB, and if I haveto explain the same thing over and over again, as you disrupt and derail one thread after another with LITERALLY the same silly ass accusations, I wil simply declare you irrational, and conclude that you are a waste of any further time. Then you can enjoy attacking yourself with the fruits of the spirit - sounds like fun.