An Atheist still Waiting for an Answer

And you are on ignore. Goddby BB - I am sure I am not the first, nor will I be the last to see your antics as nothing but irrational finger pointing. Enjoy the hate fest.

 

The discussion of the Fruits doesn't accomplish anything except revealing the heart of those who reject them.
Feel free to put me on ignore. I encourage you to do so. I won't have to deal with the flamebait accusations of atheism that nearly all your posts include.
By the way, I didn't bring up the Fruits in this thread. You did. I simply responded to your post.
You can look it up.
Oh, and by the way, I have never called you a rapist or a slaver. In fact, I have cheered the Christians who fought slavery in spite of the bible giving them no reason to. You know this to be true.

 

You're misapplying the concept of the God of the Gaps. I'm assuming for the sake of argument that god ALREADY is known to exist, not finding something unexplained and claiming it must prove God.

Do we really know what causes ALL natural disasters? I'm not sure we do. And who is 'we'? I personally don't have the capability to stop them and save everyone. There are certainly some people in Bangladesh who are powerless to stop it. Why must they suffer because OTHER people haven't come up with the solution to prevent all deaths by natural disaster, even if such a thing really is possible?

And I should probably say, 'evil' is potentially a misleading word. All this problem needs is something that has negative consequences on intelligent beings. 'Evil' is shorthand for that, in this case, and it's a little sloppy I must admit. Antarctic quakes - hell, even entire supernovas - they don't have negative consequences on intelligent beings, but when there's a tsunami and someone dies, that's a different story.

I don't deny such examples as valid, merely saying that they don't cover all the bases. Or are you really suggesting that every single instance, in all of human history and beyond, where someone has been hurt, are all down to nothing more than bad choices, every single last one of them?

No point denying that trolls come in all religious persuasions. Except possibly Amish. I haven't reported anything to mods though. If I have a problem with something someone said I either tell them or walk it off.

OK I'll bite. In what way do you think God does step in to prevent people making bad choices?

 

I am aware of it, and I am aware that the exact same logic is being applied by you toward the Problem of Evil. the problem of evil disposses a God that is cruel, predisposes that there is a God, and atheists are only too happy to judge him for it - dismiss credible explanations or alternatives - and then claim there is just a giant gap in our knowlegde so we cannot really know.

BTW - as for God of the gaps, I have long argued that the evidence for God is inconclusive, and used preponderance of the evidence arguements to show that God is a distinct possibility using logic ... but we cannot know for sure. That later statement has been lazily dismissed by atheists, both on and off this forum as the God of the gaps. But when it suits atheism ... suddenly unexplanable gaps are ... OK?

Yes, we really do. Do we not know what causes tornados? Do we not know what causes earthquakes? Overflowing watershed flooding into flood planes? Droughts caused by a lack of rain, and they do seem to hit some reas more frequently than others do they not? Tsunami? No idea?

The discussion of evil once again is, why is an earhtquake in the middle of Anatartica ... not even worth mentioning unless you are a geologist studying it, but suddenly the embodiment of evil if it happens in Los Angles and corrupt public figure took a short cut on a the construction of a freeway bridge and NOW people die ... because they were unawar of earth quakes in Los Angles? And suddenly the same action that took place in Antartica ... is evil?

We know why plate tectonics exist, otherwise our planet would look a lot like Venus would it not? There would be no life at all. We know wher eth fault zones are, and we can certainly require building codes that will withstand even the greatest earthquake - yet there is still corruption, still constructoirs who take short cuts, still homeowners looking for more house than they can afford who will take short cuts, and when the inevitable comes ... must be an evil God's fault?

Perhaps, as the point of all this and our short time here on Earth is that we learn, perhaps these things are all in place to remind us of the consequences of greed, dishonesty, and hubris? The later being evil, the result ... merely consequence. Or is consequence now evil?

Why? From God's point of view, whose duty is to ALL man kind and not just YOU, who realize death is merely a return to him ... why is a tesumani that kills a man worse than one that does not? It is undoubtedly difficult for friends ... but tsunami, death by natural causes, accidents ... these are one thing. Death by execution? Murder? Torture before murder ... these carry a distinctly different flavor of acceptance, grief, and fear.

Its the later that is the reality of evil.

At some point? Yep. It may not be the choices WE make, but we are the victims of more than our own choices. Tell me, when someone is drunk and drives and kills someone ... the victim is purely innocent of such a death is he not? What about Stalin's hencemen show up (Or Hitler's whatever), because their neighbor ratted them out because he wants to steal his land? He's just as dead. Is that evil? Yep. Were either or those caused by God?

I sually confront them, it works with real life bullies ... doesn't appear to be working as well with internet bullies who simply run screaming to their internet parents.

Well, I will give you a personal example. I walked into a church and really, really felt the holy spirit. It was absolutely incredible. The next week I went back and ... nothing. It was like the spirit was just gone. Then the sermon started and the pastor reminded us that alcohol blunts the spirit and comes between man and God. I had about an ounce of Cognac the night before ... call be befuddled. I have not drank sense, and although I do not always feel the spirit in that church, I did the following week after giving up drink.

Again, that is just one small example of aid.

But there are greater examples, from answered prayers, miracles, service, provision of means, guidance, etc. etc. Not the least of which is the guidance given to the Jews in the OT that atheists find so detestable, but somehow allowed a tiny people to survive at the cross roads of murauding empires that simply dwarfed the Jews ... pretty damb effective. There is alos the guidance given to Paul, etc. that lead to the founding of the Catholic Church ... and, should you believe, guidance given to Mohammed, Joseph Smith, whose churches now BOTH flourish.

Anoether example, a friend in church is not a rixh man, but an abnle man with four kids and a wife he loves dearly (you know the usual slaver household), at any rate, last winter his furnace went out ... and he had no money to pay for it. His family sacrificed and skimped, but as the weather worsened it was clear that the money could not be raised. Bringing in an expert to fix it, and the furnace was declared dead - in need of replacement. People from the church, attempted to help revive the furnace ... all to no avial. After watching his children eat their breakfast before going to school all bundled up to stay warm, he broke down on the way to work. He pulled off to the side of the road and prayed - poured his heart out to God. Explained his desperation to help his family avoid suffering (you know that thing an evil God rather than a faulty furnance was inflicting upon his family), but not knowing how to provide that relief. After compossing himself ... he went to work.

A few hours later, his wife called him and was happy. The furnace had literally started up all on its own and was now functioning with perfection. That is, I swear it, a true story.

Now, does that sound like the actions of a distant uncaring and absolutely evil God?

Or, is it, as when I first shared that story, simple a matter of broken furnances randomnly turning themelves on after repairing themsleves? As several atheists derided it.

When you see things like this happening all the time, when you deliberately do not blind yourself to them ... well, the lazy dumping of the problem of evil becomes quite clear in intent and function. That is not to say that all atheists, or even philosophers, that explore it, do so with dishonorable intent, but thus far ... you are the only supporter of the problem set to explore it honestly.

And, though there may be some truth to it, may be some interesting curiosity to it, something to make one ponder, it is certainly not the slam dunk that proves religion is worthless and avoids the tough questions as so many 'atheists' so often present it as.

 

Walking it off, huh, Professor?

 

thebrucebeat

This message is hidden because thebrucebeat is on your ignore list.

BB - you crossed a line. That line has been doubly crossed since confirming your prescence in an organized flame bait campaign. My responses to you are clearly being reported in mass by a group of your pals. Your posts were bad enough when it was just you, but when the intent is solely to illicite an emotional response - so you and your pals can report the response and ignore your own behavior? Well, not only are your antics silly, they are utterly disrespectful and without merit.

Please do not respond to anything I write. I have no desire or intent to engage someone who has no intention of engaging in an honest conversation and, when you loses an arguement, will throw in with a group of atheists to punish someone for daring to disagree with him on a debate forum.

We are done. Please accept it and move on. Allow the next one of your pals to step in and you can become of the reporters rather than the inflammer.

 

You are not on my ignore list and I will respond to anyone I like.
Thanks for your concern, though.
The only quibble I have with your posts is the constant flamebaiting within them, like constantly referring to me as an atheist when I have clearly stated repeatedly that I am not. Those lies become something I can't abide. Then it is up to the moderators to decide if my complaint is legitimate or specious. By your reaction, it sounds like they have sided with me, that your posts are personal and unfounded and should stop. Your posts have lost any kind of emotional control. This one is no different.
If you don't have control of your emotions, as you state in this post, don't blame others for it. Take responsibility for your immaturity and reach higher.
As tough and threatening as you are attempting to sound, you don't control what I respond to. If you can't emotionally handle those responses, it is probably better that you leave me on ignore until you are better able to cope with my counter arguments without losing control.
Have a great day!

 

BB - seriously, I have no desire to engage you. None. I am sure that you are rambling on about how you are going to make me pay - which is the whole intent of an organized flame bait campaign - but this is a debate forum. It is not a harass and inflame peole because they disagree with you ... on a debate forum. If your intent is to make me pay? Well, know you know why I want nothing to do with you.

Now, I am asking you like an adult to simply grow up and leave me alone. This will be the last response you get. And whether your like it or not, we are done.

 

Now, Prof, I would love to hear what you have to say on the subject. What the forum needs, as opposed to organized flame bait, is a reasonable, rational atheist who can discuss something with civility.

I'd love to hear what you have to say. Understanding though, that this may not be the best case for an atheist to hang his intellectual hat upon, its nevertheless, if discussed openly and honestly, and opportunity to explore.

And what a shift that would be!

 

This exchange is getting rather lengthy, and while I have issues with much of the rest of what you posted, I think I'll try to rein it in a bit here by saying that I completely agree with this part. Then again, I have to say I never thought religion is worthless, even though I never believed God exists. Plenty of good is done by Churches and they seem like great places to be sometimes. The 'problem' of evil is not entirely intractable, it's just that the solutions never struck me as very effective, if you like.

 

Nevertheles Prof, it is an opportunity to explore evil. Its definitely something that is out there, though I disgree that natural disasters are, in and of themselves, evil. No more so than a predator killing its prey.

As I said, it would be difficult to turn the Problem of Evil into a slam dunk, but many people of faith do struggle with exactly the question that it posses. Obviously, I don't. But an HONEST discussion of the subject cannot hurt anything.

 

I like that you are done!
Me, I'll respond if I think it's interesting.
You have a funny way of ignoring me. This is your third post to me since you did it.

 

Very well. As I said, I think 'evil' is a tricky word to use. How can an event be evil? Tornadoes have no malicious intent - they have no intent at all! I think it's more to do with the effects - the suffering, for want of a better word. Tornadoes and predators and so on, they can certainly cause suffering even if we don't think they're evil for doing so.

Now it seems to me that you think the suffering is to be blamed on some choice that resulted in being in the tornado's path, or wandering through a jungle where predators lay in wait, or so on. And god doesn't intervene because those are our choices, and he wants us to choose freely. Am I along the right lines?

The question then, though, is why not offer guidance that everyone can clearly understand? If his love is boundless, won't he want to help us fully understand the consequences of our actions, so that we may choose better? OK, if it's true, then there's the bible / torah / quran / other holy book depending on your religion - but obviously, that isn't convincing enough for everyone. Even the people who believe every word still make bad choices, even when their intentions are good!

My love for my son is pretty strong but not boundless. I want him to make the right choices because its what HE wants. I want to let him learn from mistakes. But some of those mistakes are too harsh a lesson. That's why I might shout at him or push him away if he tries to stick his fingers in an electrical socket. Once he's old enough, I'll tell him about the problems that can be caused by excessive alcohol, drugs, and so on - in an attempt to influence his decisions, and avoid unnecessary suffering. But I can't be everywhere, and guide him in everything. I don't even know what all the problems he will face are going to be.

God's love IS boundless. God CAN be everywhere. God DOES know all the problems each of us will face individually. And he could stop us not only from sticking our fingers in light sockets, but buying a house on a flood plain due to ignorance, or wandering through a piece of woodland where unbeknownst to us there is a hungry grizzly bear on the prowl. Even if he didn't want to physically stop us, he COULD give us all the information we need to make an informed choice, thereby still allowing us to exercise our own free will. Why does he not do that?

 

But that is just it, it is completely and totally our fault that we suffer when a tornado comes through. Why? Because we may not know WHEN they are coming, but they are coming - and we know it. So, take for example tornado alley. When the military builds a substandard building for office work, or temporary work, they emplace cocrete bunkers next to them, literally the same ones we use in Iraq and Afghanistan to withstand car bombs and artillery. So when the tornado that we don't know WHEN its coming, shows up? We get into the bunkers - and we are safe - our non-standard building get blown away ...

Now does someone living in Joplin Missouri, like my father, not know that tornados come through from time to time? Do the city planner and builders not know this? So why build houses using a code that will not withstand the tornados that we KNOW are going to come one day? Why not set a code that will at the very least, greatly reduce the damage that tornados do ... rather than allow codes that when the tornado comes ... literally flattens entire neighborhoods?

And what about people? Hmm ... if we let the code slide a bit, then I can live in a McMansion rather than a sturdy house. If I let my home owners insurance slip as well ... then I can buy a BMW!! Yeah me! Then the tornado shows up, my McMansion is swept away, killing some of my family, my nice car is destroyed and with my lapses insurance ... I get nothing to rebuild (save the charity of others). There is certainly suffering there, but it that suffering the result of the tornado? Or a series of poor decisions?

I have been through tornados in a different community, and am just fine. Why? Because the community I lived it had higher building codes, and when the tornado hit ... the only things knocked down were trees, some property damage, but we were all OK. Not so in Joplin.

The same thing comes in war. The Army, knowing that our enemy was going to shoot artillery at us, put concrete bunkers all over the place. THey too could have said that spending millions would make no sense, but when the artillery arrives and our Soldiers die for lack of cover? Well, we would term that criminal negligence. Why, when the same thing happens with a tornado, do we term it evil?

Nope and the Bible itself acknoiwledges as much. 'Proof' is actually filled by one of the aspects of what they term the Trinity, Mormons the God Head, etc. All Christian faiths have some interpretation that deals with the three aspects of what is commonly known the Trinity. THe aspect that deals with proof is the Holy Spirit. We are given proof directly from teh Holy Spirit, in a way that is personalized and convincing JUST for us. And once we know .... well, to know and then reject? That is what is termed the unpardonable sin.

Lacking that though, to doubt is natural. The method of redress is spelled out quite clearly in the Bible. Open yourself up to the Holy Spirit, be humble, respectful, and geunie in your search and you will get an answer. Perhaps not right away, but you will get the answer.

I can offer up my own testimony on the matter, as a former atheist, I did just that. I did not recieve the proof immediately, but I did get it. Its not something that I can reproduce scientifically, but I did get it. There is literally no way that I can deny the existence of God. I KNOW that he is there. Furthermore, when I did the same thing asking for the correct path, I was directed to a church literally two blocks away that I did not even know was there - and have found the church to be rewarding beyond my imagination.

So, either I am a loon, which might be possible, or there is something to this, which might also be possible.

THat is just it. Your chidlren are all your children, you lov ethem no matter what, but as they mature into adulthood, we let them make their own choices - even if we disagree with them. This life? In the grand spiritual timeline, is short, and contrasts our adulthood - our ability to make choices and recieve the consequences of them, good or bad. We don't sign up for it blindly though, we are raised, hopefully, in a household filled with love ... but we are adults, and even those raised in sub-standard or abusive households, can, as adults (rarely as children) overcome the hurdles placed in their life by abuse.

That is exactly the point. God's love is boundless - its why ALL this was created. For YOU, and me, and even Brucebeat, to come down here and learn. To expierence, to have consequences, at th eend of which ... we return to him. the Holy Ghost is also out there, and its role is provide exactly the guidance you ask for - to provide the warnings you ask for. And to those that are attuned to it ... it is incredible to behold. Its what drove Paul and the other Apostles to spread their gospel, to know where to go, and where not too. THat same spirit exists today - and it can, with work, be tapped into.

At the end of this life, which comes to us all, will we be able to look back and say that we lived imperfectly, but withing the bounds of our principles and with honor. Have we gained wisdom? Have we learned? Served? Well, conviction in that plan drove Paul and the other Apostles to spread their words, and eventually ... to chose principle over their own life - as Jesus did. And they did so JUST so that people like you and me would have an opportunity to hear the word and explore it for ourselves.

We all live our lives, I myself joined the military because I was strong and wanted to defend the poor and weak, and have since discovered that going off to war is not necessarily the best way to do that. Probably should have read my Clausewitz first, but I doubt I would have understood it before going off to war. The desire for service is not wrong, but as we seek to fulfill what we know is right ... we learn, we grow, we become more effective, we seek opportunities even in imperfect circumstances, because we understand that life in an expierence to do just those things. And honestly, thanks to atonement, at the end of the process, we can receive an unearned promise and return to our father who loves us every bot as much as you love your Son - better for the expierence.

Life is not evil, it is a gift. Within life, some choose honor, and some choose evil. Both choices bring consequences.

 

I want to see this sermon preached to the child that won't reach the age of two because they were born into a gift of a world that can't feed her.
The perception of life as a gift is the position of people lucky enough to have been born into circumstances that support their vision.

 

I can buy all that, but that's all down to choices made by the person affected. Now, let's try a different time, a different place, a different situation. How did we even learn that tornadoes hit that area frequently? How do we know any area is likely to be hit by floods, tornadoes, earthquakes, whatever? Someone has to be the first to learn, and some of the time, surely, it must be the hard way.

Or what if you know you're in a tough spot, but you can't find a way out? The destitute, the elderly, the young, the disabled, in the path of the most devastating tsunami in history ever to hit inland before we could predict such things(whichever one that was)... I don't buy that every single one of them even had a way out to take, never mind the werewithal to actually take it, especially since there has never been any tsunami this large and so they have no real reason to expect it. So, we lay the blame on their parents / city planners / whoever made the decisions that got them in that spot? I suppose that blames free will again... but it's the free will of OTHER people. I just don't see the 'greater good' in protecting the free will of a man making bad or even malevolent decisions as being more important than maintaining the health and safety of a person doing their best to make GOOD decisions.

Besides, there is not a single place in the world that is 100% safe. You can move away from flood plains and hurricane alley. You could move away from high crime areas and avoid traveling on roads with accident black spots. You could spend every waking moment doing your (*)(*)(*)(*)edest to make the safest possible decisions and you can bet your butt you'll still end up in bad times, sooner or later. Whats the good in having us guaranteed to end up suffering regardless of what you chose, of your own free will? If a man's heart is good, and he does his best to make choices that will do good, but bad things still happen because he is not perfect, why must he STILL suffer? Is doing your best not good enough?

Hang on. If this 'spirit' is convincing for me, why on earth would I reject it? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Do you recall talking to me about miracles? I opened myself up to that possibility, as much as I think I possibly could have. I won't go into detail about it, but I asked very little indeed, and it didn't work for me, in fact it went quite spectacularly wrong. This does not lead me to think much of the chances if I open up the same way to this spirit.

Also, this doesn't address the point. People who try their best, including people who believe in this holy spirit, still end up making bad decisions. Do you agree that this shows that, in at least some cases, that any divine guidance that may have been given isn't clear enough? Or is it always the fault of the human, for not recognising the guidance given? God is no supply teacher - he could make his guidance crystal clear, if he really wanted us to make the right decision. So why does he not?

Yes, I'll be letting him make his own choices, once he is old enough - but that doesn't mean I won't try to guide him sometimes, especially if I think his choices might lead to suffering. That's the point I'm making there.

A fine speech. It still leaves questions though. Why do we even need to be 'attuned' in order to receive guidance - If he cares so much for us, why even place this barrier between us and his guidance? And, for someone like me who is not convinced of god and this spirit's existence, to put it mildly, how would I even be able to attune myself in this way?

 

Not by the time it matters, which is when we have civilizations that are effected by natural disasters. Prior to that, as you see with animals, they are pretty well attuned to these things, even if they lack the exact brain power to do much more than flee from it. Now, ancient Rome, are you telling me that what prevented them from knowing that there were volcanos and earth quakes was a lack of knowledge about plate tectonics? On the contrary, ROman builds have often ingenius methods of withstanding earth quakes, from 'sliding bricks' that were allowed movement within buildings that have allowed many an ancient structure to withstand millenia of battering from earthquakles and natural disaters. Now, in between Rome and now, how many times has humanity stupidly allowed its building codes to slip? Even today, with all our knowledge, why do thousands die from earth quakes while in other areas, similiar sized earth quakes kill ... no one?

The idea that we did not know it was going to happen when we built our civilizations that could be so greatly effected by them is simply ... untrue.

Prudence. Have you seen what happens in this country, where we allow freedom of religion and have a democracy, in the aftermath of a natural disaster? Charity comes on a massive scale. Both governmental and private, often church group, charity arrives. Now contrast that with Pakistan, which had floods that were practically Noahic in nature. North Korea where starvation is the result of governmental ineptness and there is no habitat for humanity or church groups (well, there are a few sneaking in supplies from China) to give food to starving - food sent from charity organization is just diverted to the military. Its hard to blame these things on God?

Next, life is not about being perfect at all times. We live in a world where we are effected by choices other than our own. That means, inevitably, sometimes bad things are going to happen to all of us. Now when it does, you can choose to be resilient, or you can choose to blame a God you do nor believe in and call it evil. It's just life. Yrue evil is an intent and action, and trust me, you know it when you see it up close.

Additionally, who says good behavior does not reap rewards? On both this life and the next. If, in this life, you behave honorable when you THINK no one is watching, well, every religion out there talks about there being something on the other side of the veil. We are still going to do something? What do you think awaits those for utilization whose charcter has been demonstrated as sound? Verses those whose is not?

From natural disaters? Yes there is.

Crime is not a natural disaster is it? It is the result of human beings taking decisions either from desperation, rare, or deliberately chooseing evil. Accidents are the results of many things, like texting while driving, and its hard to blame those on God isn't it?

Free Will - God has chosen to respect that, and as soon as it's taken away - its gone. No more accidents ... but no exploration, no learning, no growing, no nothing, we are enslaved by a ... well, how would that be love?

Yep, its why its called the unpardonable sign to reject it after recieving it from the holy spirit. You haven't. But, if you knew God was real, and I mean knew it the way I know it, and you still rejected it? Again, the spirit is there, but not every decides to listen. That is perhaps a sin, like any of the other ones we make, but its not, in and off itself necessarily wrong?

How many people, having decided that there is a God, do what I did and ask God to send him to the right church - not prove it mind you - but be directed? My little church is not one I would have chosen on my own - but it is definitely the right church for me - no question about it - all because I took the time to ask.

There is not much I provide in terms of insight without knowing specifics? Not that I intend to mock you in the slightest. All I can say is that I have been put through many things in my life, many of which I did not understand, and it took years to understand what had happened and why. I cannot say when or how, but God does answer. Just remember, 'no' is an answer.

Thou shalt not lie.

Is the problem that this guidance is not clear enough?

That is exactly what God does. Again, I aksed his guidance about a church, and he gave me an answer - he was right. He is my father, and yours, and even Wolverine and Rstones, and like any good father he will give you the best advice he can - even if we don;t particularly want to hear it. Those who love us, will ALWAYS tell us what we need rather than what we want. Even if it pisses us off in the short term. Over time, we learn to appreciate the honesty, the frankness, and the care of honest feedback.

It doesn't take God to realize that, but its definitely a lesson he reinforces.

Can your son hear you speaking in the middle of a rock concert with the speakers blarring and him head banging? Is that a place where you would attempt to instill wisdom into your Son?

Or, would you take him somewhere quiet? Somewhere where you knew he was paying attention and could talk and reason through something in a kind and compassionate manner?

God choses the later, believeing, correctly IMHO, that those engaging the material effects of living, etc. are not going to hear whatever he has to say anyway. Just like your head banging son at a rock concert (not saying your son is head banger or anything, he could be ... but you get the point.)

 

to vicariously ::::

review of your question;;

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

** that is a good question; it would be better if we had enuf information about the way in which you want to use the engl;ish vocabulary.
???? how do you define the word ""evil"" ????

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

** that is a good question; it would be better if we had enuf information about the way in which you want to use the engl;ish vocabulary.
???? how do you define the word ""evil"" ????


Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

** that is a good question; it would be better if we had enuf information about the way in which you want to use the engl;ish vocabulary.
???? how do you define the word ""evil"" ????


Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

** that is a good question; it would be better if we had enuf information about the way in which you want to use the engl;ish vocabulary.
???? how do you define the word ""evil"" ????

please define your understanding of the word ""evil""

vlad

 

"The world" can feed every child - "the people" don't like to do so. Nevertheless I agree that it's sensefull to reduce the world population. A maximum of 2 billion people - or perhaps 1 billion people - could be a good size for Noahs starship earth.

http://youtu.be/i0O2LMqnHGg

 

I don't know what you are agreeing with. I never made that point.

 

Not? I thought you are aware that we would need more than one planet only if we don't reduce the population growth of us human beings on earth. I don't see any other way if the human race likes to survive under worthful living conditions.

http://youtu.be/6BkT6-CDIjw

 

Not my issue.