Christians, raise your hand...

A bit like voters, isn't it?

 

I'm not sure. I was mainly thinking how it was like you.

 

Stereotypes exist for a reason, and the reason is that certain characteristics and mannerisms appear in certain groups more often than they don't.

It is very PC of you to deny that, though. Your participation trophy is in the mail.

Everybody wants to be part of a group until they hear the downside, then they break out the "no true Scotsman" arguments.

 

Stereotypes and profiles are good.

 

It's how the Israelis catch terrorists.

 

Stereotypes and profiles are actually subsets of large sets that make strategy and action more efficient.

Profiling is an exceedingly good thing.

 

Oh, by the way, I have lost track of the times someone has claimed all priests and ministers are child molesters, and I didn't see you objecting to that.

 

My intention isn't to look smart or to be rude, but rather to try to help you understand where we're coming from. Christians take faith as a given, but without that faith, if you weren't raised to be a Christian, it all sounds as insane to such a person as the analogy I gave. I guess I've seen people become Christians as adults while being agnostic before, but it was under duress and I can only assume they figured out how to believe in comforting lies since their explanations never made any sense.

A less defensive response from somebody more secure in their faith is usually something more along the lines of Jesus having historical backing, witnesses, sources. While this obviously hasn't convinced me to overlook the immorality and unresolved internal inconsistency that is the Christian system, it would be nice if somebody found a way to convince me of some religion since I'd rather not believe I cease to exist after death. But I do not think I'm capable of believing in comforting lies.

On the other hand I do find cause to oppose Christianity, given that I see it as a lie that people are wasting their lives on, and even when they don't intend to it causes them to infringe upon the rights of others, e.g. against the gay community.

 

The bass for stereotypes exist but they're usually exaggerated, simplified and misrepresented. That's why it's still wrong to apply them generically to entire groups.

You're missing the irony though. You were (legitimately) complaining about generalised stereotypes applied to Catholics and Protestants while at the same time doing exactly the same kind of thing towards atheists.

 

I'm willing to be convinced. Show me that I am stereotyping atheists based on present company.

 

The knocking on doors is self serving. A religious person generally seeks to convert others. A successful conversion is apparently believed to score points with an invisible man who they believe lives in the sky and is constantly watching them. On the other hand, an atheist by definition would not believe that points can be scored by converting someone to be an atheist.

 

I thought that was fairly obvious, hence the irony in your attacking atheists “as a group” for negatively generalising Catholics and Protestants as groups.

 

No, it isn't, when people who self identify as atheists claim they know Christianity (which they don't, what they "know" is an outdated layman's view from the 1950s, inexcusable in the internet age) or the Bible, which they don't, they want to read it literally in English instead of actually trying to understand what the authors were saying to their original audience in the language they were saying it in.

You need look no farther than somebody in another thread who claimed people looked down on him for not having had a church wedding to his live in girlfriend.

Really? Over the past 20 - 30 years I have seen real people I know embrace mixed race marriages and children, gay brothers, sisters and offspring, and Jewish and Muslim in-laws.

The rest of their prejudices stem mainly from those things, my point stands.

 

And when individual atheists say those things, you’re perfectly entitled to challenge them on it (I might even join you on that in some cases). That doesn’t justify asserting that atheists in general are all guilty of it though. Are you seriously incapable of seeing how you are doing exactly the same thing to atheists that you’re accusing atheists of doing to Christians? As long as you play along with the divisiveness and generalisations, you’ll be part of the problem.

 

What church do you attend? Are you a fan of the Left Behind series?

 

Atheists have no doctrine I can criticize, I can only go by what they say and do, and I have been seeing the very things I speak of for the better part of two decades, longer if you include history before the internet.

I have tried explaining, cajoling, reasoning, been there, done that. And I even think I know the reason and I'd like to get at the truth.

This is a discussion forum. Are we here to discuss, or not?

 

No, but I'll bet you are.

 

Take notice of this, Honest Joe, this is exactly what I was talking about....I'll bet she thinks I live in Alabama, handle snakes, and have a car with the stars and bars on the roof, don't you, Margot?

 

You still seem to be missing the point. You’re not talking about interacting with all atheists here, you’re talking about interacting with a handful of individuals. It’d be perfectly justifiable for you to challenge what those individuals say. The only problem comes up when you make assertions about what “atheists as a group” think, say and do, attacking literally millions of people all around the world on the basis of the actions of a tiny number.

We are having a discussion but that discussion is just you and me. Nothing I’m saying here should reflect in any way on anyone else who doesn’t believe in gods any more that it should reflect on other Brits, other white men or other David Bowie fans.

 

I don't believe they are a "hand full". They are too well represented to be a tiny minority.

 

Well I’m not sure who “they” are. You appear to have instantly lumped Margot in to some grouping simply because she asked a couple of (admittedly flippant) questions, instantly presuming a whole list of things she must believe.

Regardless, how many of “these” people have you honestly encountered in your life? Maybe a dozen, certainly fewer than double figures. As I said, there are millions of atheists in the world today yet you’re taking the actions of a tiny fraction of a percent and instantly accusing all of those millions of being guilty of the same offences? How can you in any way justify such gross bigotry?

Yet again, by all means challenge individuals for their own words and actions (maybe even the ones who are atheists too), but don’t generalise large groupings on the basis of them. It’s really that simple and still carrying the irony of being the point you were purportedly making in the first place. It’s wrong to assume all Catholics are anti-abortion and it’s wrong to assume all atheists don’t understand Christianity. Are you still unable to acknowledge that?

 

Number one, I have crossed swords with Margot before, I am pretty sure I know where she's coming from.

And you, on the other hand, are in no position to know just how many atheists I have debated in person or over the internet. Do you know that there are whole ministries set up to answer atheism because the same things keep coming up over and over again, with the same misconceptions, the same prejudices, and the same logical fallacies.

No, I don't believe you, you are trivializing the issue.

 

Are you ashamed of your denomination or something?

 

Unless you’ve debated several million atheists, my point still stands that you’re talking about a tiny proportion and it’s inappropriate to generalise as a consequence.

No ministry has been set up to answer atheism because atheism is just the state of not believing in any gods. I guess they could exist to address challenges to Christianity (legitimate or not) but those challenges won’t come from all atheists and can come from other theists (even other Christians in some cases).

I’d say you’re trivialising the issue with the casual generalisations which make addressing the actual negative stereotypes and attacks against Christians, whoever they come from, more difficult to focus on. Just continuing to big “us against them” games doesn’t improve anything. I want to be on your side but you’re excluding me by extension.

 

Well, Joe, I usually enjoy your posts but you are wrong, there most certainly are ministries set up to answer atheists, Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, and just about every religious philosophy there is. And atheists do ask the same questions and make the same claims over and over again, more often than you imagine, and that is why stereotypes exist, because the phenomenon is noticeable.