Do you not see? Democrats OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE!

Yes! She confront that supposed "weaponization" with facts!

Of course, in the real world this is just your conspiracy theory. But if it did happen, facts would be the best defense. They always work! Show me the facts! Show the public the facts. Let's all be transparent! And the first of us who is not transparent... that's the guilty party.

BTW, there was an element in your scenario that I should have commented on. Because I think it's very relevant. When you say that some in her staff are accused of white collar crimes, and she get furious. Of course she gets furious! But she get furious at her staff! Not at the investigators.

The minute... the second.... she gets furious at the investigators who found that somebody on her staff committed a crime... that's the moment she loses most of her supporters. Myself included. I say again: Democrats are not inclined to "cult mentality". There is a reason for the old saying "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line". It's a fact! A politician crosses us... or we so much as suspect they crossed us... and we'll turn on them so fast it will make your head spin. We're the most disloyal bunch (to politicians) you can ever hope to find. And I think that's a good thing!

That's one of the shortcomings of the Democratic Party. Not hot on avoiding negative precedent. Always an internal fight. Look at the one we're having now trying to convince the party leadership not to set one by failing to impeach Trump. Frustrating! But it is what it is.... The struggle continues...

In my case, the precedent you mention, while not great, is much less relevant than allowing people to commit crimes and remain unpunished.

Then we would never never would have had all the indictments that we got. And you would never know if Trump were innocent or guilty of any crimes.

So, bottom line, you prefer not knowing then the possibility that your "idol" might be found guilty. That is cult mentality.

 

Exactly!

That's how it works. The parts are Act, Nexus, Intent. If all three come together, there is a prosecutable crime. If they don't, there isn't. So Mueller explains ten cases of obstruction. In four of them, the puzzle is set. In the other six, pieces are missing. But Mueller indicates which pieces are missing and often, what exactly Congress can do to obtain them. If they exist. Because they may not exist....But we won't know until Congress looks for them.

That's all... Easy...

 

so i was right all along, it's 'your' conclusions, 'your' interpretation of the facts. There is no facts that conclusively prove there was obstruction.

Incidentally, you do realize that NOTHING stopped Mueller from stating he felt Trump obstructed justice and that there is sufficient evidence to indict, if it weren't for the fact that Trump was a sitting president, per OLC opinion. NOTHING prevented Mueller from stating this and he should've if he felt there was enough evidence; otherwise, it's a dereliction of duty! Mueller didn't go this far because he didn't feel there WAS enough evidence.

 

I'm still confused that a good portion of our country so hates the other portions, that they would welcome the help of our greatest adversary. That they would defend the behavior of a President that accepted that help and then lied about it. But then nothing surprises me about the current crop of conservatism.

 

That is up to Congress, not the DOJ. And trump is guilty as hell. He colluded with the Russians on national TV. He clearly obstructed justice. And he is clearly abusing power. He does it every day. He is also raping the WH for a profit.

And of course you believe it.

 

I'm obviously not for "weaponization of DOJ/intelligence agencies against political opponents" that is just more right wing garbage. Isn't that what you conservative like to do? Pretend liberals say something or took a position they never did, any then hate then for that fantasy. What I am opposed to is extreme ignorance and out right lies. It is why I have such a low opinion of most conservatives.

 

government spying on a political candidate based on a fake dossier not enough to warrant a review? really? that's scary.. Funny you mentioned transparency, Trump provided Mueller with everything Mueller asked for and just ordered all info declassified, he's Mr. Transparency.

not when the investigators are being bullied, interrogating people for 10 hours, trying to set purgers traps. Asking people if they remember stuff from 10 years ago and then inducting when the person gets facts wrong, due to not remembering. Yeah, this type of prosecutorial abuse would make Kamala furious.

You are taking my post out of context, clearly i meant Kamala would be furious at the whole thing... not just that crimes were found. I was talking about the whole process, the intimidation, interrogations, investigators setting perjury traps, threatening people to say what they want to hear or else... Several people claimed this happened to them during the process. What about what happened to Carter Page? a totally innocent man, dragged through the mud. Michael Flynn was charged for lying about certain things he said from conversations years before, do you remember everything you spoke about with people 3 years ago? All this, plus the whole bogus fake dossier... this is what allude to when i state she would be furious if the same happened to her.

the threshold for impeachment should be set EXTREMELY HIGH. There is reason 'high crimes' are mentioned in constitution. The framers were petrified of presidents being impeached for anything but high crimes. When congress impeaches, they are essentially thwarting will of the American people. There is absolutely nothing here that warrants impeachment, the obstruction case is at best, inconclusive and the DOJ actually concluded there wasn't sufficient evidence to determine obstruction occurred. The reason Nancy hasn't pushed for impeachment is because she's one of the few dems that actually respects constitution and knows thwarting the will of the people should be reserved for clear, provable, irrefutable facts that point to high crimes. Had Mueller found Trump conspired with Russia to hack into DNC or conspired with Russia to hack election machines, this, IMO, breaches the threshold and i would even support it. There is nothing here... no conspiring, coordinating,cooperating (collusion) with Russia to commit crimes and the obstruction case is an incredibly weak one. That Trump felt Mueller had a conflict of interest and wanted him replaced, but NOT stop investigation? THERE IS NOTHING HERE... To impeach for this is undemocratic and it would set an extremely dark precedent in America where threshold for impeachment, thwarting will of the people, would be significantly lowered. THIS IS AN ABOMINATION..

 

I'm not a conservative. i'm a JFK democrat.. oh wait, i guess JFK would be considered a conservative today? maybe i am

 

A FISA warrant may only be granted from an application with 100% verified information. The DOJ / FBI included the bogus Clinton/Steele Dossier that was obtained through Collusion with Russian Agents.

How do you hold such a ridiculous opinion? Please share how providing unverified information in a FISA Application is proper?

 

Sure you were. Was Johnson's Great society too much for you? It began as Kennedy's idea. My mom really liked Kennedy, even kept his portrait on the wall but she was never a Democrat. I don't think that she knew what Kennedy stood for, other than he was a Catholic. I used to wonder why my brothers were so weirdly conservative, but at some point I realized that she was just as nutty.

My dad was a stanch Democrat, mostly because he was a union guy. I grew up comfortable because my dad always had a good union job. Yet, in my dad's final decade, he started listening to right wing radio. Next thing you knew, he was trashing Democrats and unions. At times it was difficult to decide where the right wing spin ended and the dementia began.

 

Russia had nothing to do with Clinton loss; in fact, the Russia collusion story probably hurt Trump. I bet many independents and conservatives didn't vote for Trump because of the fake Russia Collusion story in the media. Clinton lost because she ran an empty campaign with the core message 'yeah, vote for me cause i'm a woman and not for him, as he's a racist, bigot, misogynist, loose cannon, sexual predator and his voters are deplorables'

 

What does Trump's corruption have to do with Hillary? Are you trying to say that because Hillary ran a bad campaign, Trump's corruption is just fine? Where is the logic in that?

 

Kennedy didn't believe in high taxes, wasn't a big fan of the Fed, respected law enforcement, didn't wage war on white people, didn't accuse his opposition of being racists, didn't pit Americans against each other, didn't attack christians (he was a catholic), was a partner of Israel , didn't attack constitution and founding fathers, didn't want to erase history by taking down monuments, respected 2nd amendment. He was tough on foreign adversaries. He was a positive, forward looking guy.. unlike today's i don't even know what to call them.

A few quotes from JFK:

on race:

on taxes:

On foreign adversaries:

on abortion, he once said this:

on 2nd amendment, well, he was an NRA member
on Israel:

On immigration, he believed in the saying 'we are a nation of immigrants' and he supported a generous immigration system, but admitted with limitations. He was not in favor of unabated illegal immigration.

Now tell me, how would Kennedy be considered a democrat today?

 

a lot as it's all made up to make excuses for her loss. There were no crimes...

 

JFK got his father to intervene with the draft board so that he could serve in the Navy where he was a decorated veteran. Trump got his daddy to get a phony doctors note to get him out of serving. JFK would hate the scummy GOP of today and especially Bonespurs.

 

Kennedy was a friend and supporter of Joe McCarthy.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/progjfk2.htm

I guess Johnson really did cause the United States to fundamentally change. Suddenly I see the value in the bullets to the Kennedy heads. It is Johnson that conservatives hate most, isn't it? Kennedy was a rich kid and thus quite compatible with the right wing desires. (Is not his daughter the richest woman in the world who never did anything to earn it?) It was Johnson who gave poor people nutritional and health care assistance. It was Johnson who first gave us environmental protection. It was he who ended Jim Crow laws and ensured that African American voting rights were not being violated. When his programs went into effect, the national poverty rate was at 26%, now it is around 12%.

If you want to know why African Americans and Hispanics stick to the Democratic Party, it is because Johnson and the programs he began, have done more to lift them out of poverty, and protect their rights than any thing else. And the Democrats are much less likely to say the hateful, racist things some Republicans are known for.

 

When Johnson handed Goldwater the worse Presidential defeat in history, the Republicans launched their idea of misinformation, as a pillar of conservative thought, which ultimately led to the likes of the Heritage Foundation, CPAC and FOX News.

 

no one in the FBI or DOJ has been fired to end the investigation like Trump did

I hope dems go after Trump hard after he leaves office and CAN be indicted

the craziest part is the leader of the investigation was a republican that choose to conceal about Trump and talk about Hillary's investigation - so was their bias.. maybe against Clinton.... so let see it all

 

and while we are at it, lets go after the people that investigate Bengazi and the Clinton email... see if any of them voted republican and chanted lock her up, look at their emails and sms texts - pretty sad

 

Barr refused to testify before congress, Barr is Trump's lap dog... republicans are giving more power to the President and giving up congressional power... they will regret that come 2020

 

Well 1) obama was President when it happened. It happened under his watch 2) the current president did not conspire with Russia nor lie about it. He routinely said there was no conspiracy it was the left that falsely accused him according to the mueller report

 

Arguing with this guy is like arguing flat earth theories with road kill. Clearly he never read the Mueller report and wouldn't understand it if he did because it crashes against his bias. Argue enough with a fool and observers will eventually have difficulty determining who is the fool. Cash me out.

 

Democrats are shaking in their boots because Barr will uncover the spying on Americans now known to have started in 2012 by the Obama administration. The illegal use of 702 NSA database searches that was shut down by Mike Rogers. Of course they tried to get rid of Rogers after he did that. This in-American activity is what democrats are trying to protect.

BTW: NSA has Hillary’s 30,000 emails and Barr and Durham will probably get access to them but of course they will have to fight to get them but the DOJ has subpoena power.

 

glad you admit you hate JFK and Johnson is your hero.

Here's what is interesting about the 'great society'. Do you know that the wealth/income gap between whites and blacks in 60s was less that it is now? even adjusted for inflation.

"Now let’s talk about race. In 2013, the average wealth (remember, that could include the value of a home) of African-American families was $95,000. For Hispanics — $112,000. The average wealth of white families was $500,000 greater than it was for African-American or Hispanic families. In 1963, average white family wealth exceeded that of African-American and Hispanic families by only $117,000 (in 2013 dollars)."

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/todays-racial-wealth-gap-is-wider-than-in-the-1960s

How did 'great society' not significantly curb racial wealth gap since it was passed in 60s? Remember, it is said President Johnson stated 'I'll keep those n... voting democrat for 200 years!' after he presided over his 60s legislation.

He promised to fight black poverty, how did that turn out?

I'm not against welfare but it has to have proper incentives... It has been very destructive to black families more than it has helped. Try hiring someone that is used to collect checks from government, they will not work one extra minute, so they can continue collecting. Many don't even try to get jobs and this does tremendous damage to pride, makes people feel worthless and it creates laziness, culture degradation... it's like a drug that keeps people in perpetual poverty and they can't seem to be able to get out of it. Of course they will vote democrats to they can keep getting their 'fix'.

 

Barr testified before Congress twice since the Mueller Report dropped. What power is the Republicans giving the President that's new?