Dr Ben Carson has a great point

Please. Republicans want those babies to be born but then don’t want to support them when their parents are incapable to do so. I don’t call that “value life.”

 

I caught bits and pieces of primary debates. Obviously not that part. In context I agree with Carson. Civilian casualties are a fact of war. A president must be aware of that. Sure it was a set up question and Carson blew it but he’s fundamentally correct in his answer. This episode did show he doesn’t have the political acumen to deal with press. On that we agree.

If you think his answer disqualified him from being pro life I hope you are never president. A commander in chief that doesn’t believe how he answered is a huge liability. One that says it in public debate is likely not good presidential material either. The debate worked as intended.

 

IIRC The Economist has a pretty reliable and fairly nonpartisan reputation.

 

I am an applied Scientist - chemistry/microbiology and have far more courses in relation to the subject material than Carson.
2) Doctors are not Scientists
3) Medical School followed by specializing in a very narrow area - is not one of the subject matter domains.

I did not disparage Carson's beliefs (although I will gladly do so if you like). I made the comment about Satan to show that Carson's claims in relation to abortion are biased on the basis of his fundamentalist religious belief.

The fallacy is contained in the following post.

The post infers that credibility should be given to Carson on the basis that he is a brain surgeon. My post on Satan was a response to this fallacy.

The question of whether or not a living human exists (a baby) at all stages of pregnancy is something on which subject matter experts disagree. Carson views the zygote - single cell at conception - as a baby - a living human.

Ben is welcome to his belief but - is it informed by anything other than religious belief ? Obviously not because otherwise he would not be making the "DEFACTO" claims that he does.

 

Considering the fact pyramids were built over at least a 2300 year period its not outside the realm of possibility that they were used for more than burial at some point.

Remember there are people who believe polar bear populations are declining. Never mind we never had good data to know one way or the other.

Simply put, there are things we can’t know so have to postulate about. Doing so doesn’t make one stupid.

Geez.

 

The fossil record proves there was no global flood around 2100-2400 BC. If there was such a flood such a short time ago (geologically speaking it is a blink of an eye)... we should be able to dig down a few feet in the midwest - or any significantly inland location - and find the flood layer. It simply does not exist

This however is not the only "nail in the coffin" evidence. The ice cores date back many hundreds of thousands of years. If there was a global flood it would show up and easily be recognized .. in fact the ice cores as we have them should not exist.

We have continuous civilizations throughout this time period (2100-2400) in Africa, China, India, Europe, Egypt, the Near East, South America, Australia and so on.

If there was a global flood - the civilization would not be continuous. On a deeper level there would be art, culture, language, pottery, bone structure, DNA and so on. We should then see the flood layer - destroying this society. When the area is recolonized the people will have different art, culture, pottery, bone structure, DNA and so on.

This is not what we find... we find continuous culture through this time period. Sorry - the global flood during the time period stipulated in the Bible did not happen.

Never mind the preposterous Ark Story. How did Noah - and 3 sons - collect 2 of every land species. How did he collect polar bears from the ant-arctic, kangaroo's from Australia, a pair of Spectacled bears from South America ? - and how the heck did they get back home ? Swim across the ocean ? .. and how did he fit all into the ark and feed them.

How long to you think it would take Noah and 3 son's to collect a pair of Polar Bears from the Arctic back in Noah's day ? 2 years min. Do the math. By the time Noah got to the 30th species the first ones collected are dead or dying. How on earth would hundreds - if not thousands of species be collected ?

The potential for human life to exist was present in the twinkle of your fathers eye when he looked at your mother. There is a difference between a potential human and a human. Carson's claim is that a single human cell (zygote) is a human.

Is God pro human ? Did he sit down with you for tea and tell you this ? How do you know that humans are not some experiment that God checks in on from time time - having a number of other experiments going - and does not really care either way ?

Going from the Bible - God states he regrets creating humans - essentially admitting he made a mistake in creating humans - (that every inclination the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all of the time ) followed by deciding to correct this mistake by wiping humans off the face of the earth.

This hardly seems "Pro Human". Regardless- even if we assumed that God is "Pro Human" what on earth does this have to do with fundamentalists banning alcohol (claiming God does not like it essentially) and why are you moving the goalposts - who said anything about destructive behavior like alcoholism or someone being drunk all the time.

If the God is against alcohol then why does he say this Deut 14

Have a big party in God's name ! A fall harvest festival. Why does Jesus turn the water into wine at the wedding.

This is the kind of mind boggling made up nonsense that people fundamentalists (like Ben Carson) believe in. They changed the most sacred Christian ritual - where you drink the blood of the God by substituting non alcoholic punch for wine.

I do not think you are being that much of an ass - just when you put words in my mouth and assume things on my behalf. I have looked things up and question science and politics, religion and God, on a regular basis. Can you say the same ?

 

I don’t want to be nosy but I’m willing to learn from those with knowledge. Would you share what field specifically you work in?

I was a biology major two years and animal science two years. Transferred between the two so was short of credits for a degree when it was time to go back to what I love. Farming and ranching.

Microbiology was one of my favorite subjects overall. Today my microbiology knowledge is limited to yogurt and sauerkraut making, wound care, and ruminant digestion! It must be fun to be able to keep up with new discoveries like I’m sure you have to.

With my education and practical experience with artificial insemination (and limited embryo transfer) in two species of animals I feel I have a pretty good grasp on the science.

As someone who believes morality is not subjective I wonder if that’s where we part ways?

Back to the appeal to authority. I’ll try and be more clear. I never intended to say he is the final authority because he’s (was) a brain surgeon. I was just poking fun at the idea his opinion is bogus because he has religious beliefs. It was a backhanded idiom of the “brain surgeon” meme.

Having belief in something requiring faith or assumptions of the unknown is not a disqualifier for unbiased views of science. Belief in evolutionary theory requires immense faith in unknowns. For example, to accept it requires almost complete suspension of laws of mathematics and statistics. Then there’s the philosophical dilemma of the “unmoved mover”. I’ll agree there is often religious bias applied to science, the reverse is equally true. Atheistic and evolutionary bias are rampant as well.

For example, I knew a man who worked for an oil company in Colorado. He was dating rock formations and stumbled across a method yielding results in line with young earth theory. He was fired and never worked in the industry again. It was kind of a reverse and more immediate Copernicus event. They say paybacks are hell.

To summarize, I agree with you Carson isn’t a scientist. My beliefs on medical doctors, scientists, and course material mirror yours.

Really my only point I’ve tried to make in this thread is that Carson is an intelligent man who is more than average qualified to have an informed opinion on the subject. Also being religious in no way diminishes ones understanding or application of science. Not any more so than being anti religious anyway!

It’s been a pleasure...

 

I really think you should read through your entire thread...questions you keep asking have been answered. Unless, of course, you don't like those answers...

I haven't seen anyone, nor have I ever met a pro choice person, who asserted that the 'unborn' are 'not human'. Nor is anyone saying that fetus tissue has not been sold. It simply has not been sold - as you assert - as a revenue stream for PP.

However you feel about abortion, can you not see the medical advantages to aborted fetus organs/tissue being used to save living infants or to further the scientific investigation into cures/treatments for infants?

If people were getting pregnant just to have an abortion so they could make a pile of money from organ donation - THAT would be a different matter. But that isn't happening - and it isn't the discussion.

As for Dr. Carson - he was an accomplished neurosurgeon. And, imo, he should have stayed with what he knows.

 

Right wingers prefer that they be born so they can slowly starve them to death through benign neglect.

 

Please check your facts and I don't mean from a fake news source. Carson ain’t the surgeon general, he’s the secretary of HUD who only claim to fame thus far is wasting spending on furniture at tax payers expense.

Your claims that liberals support the selling of baby parts are stupid. As far as abortion goes, are you ready to adopt all the unwanted babies??? Of course you don’t. Pathetic.

 

Might I recommend you refrain from using a man who thinks the Egyptian pyramids were built by a biblical character to store grain as your mental champion?

and by the way...why would someone harvest an undeveloped and miniature organ.

 

I’m am attempting to harvest soybeans and keep up with you typing on my phone. Sadly I am failing miserably!

You bring up good points. My short version counter is you are assuming things about a flood neither you or I can prove or disprove. One being it’s severity and whether or not there were large shifts in tectonics simultaneously or immediately following a flood.

As far as the ark story it’s absurdity can be negated again with tectonic theory and variations within species due to selection pressures after a flood. But yeh it’s a whopper.

As I alluded to before I don’t have all the answers. But a purely evolutionary old earth model certainly doesn’t either.

In answer to your question yes I try and have an understanding of both sides of issues I discuss. It’s nice to converse with someone who does the same. It’s much more fun and educational than trading insults.

I’ve got to go do chores requiring my undivided attention but I hope we can either continue another time or later on another subject.

 

It’s very clear you did not watch the entire debate, and you did not research his answer in the context that he was asked. Yes there are casualties in war but only a moron who doesn’t value human lives would condone the strategy of carpet bombing. So yes, Carson’s view on abortion is tainted based on his disregard for human lives. He’s the last guy I would listen to on this matter.

 

Set up question. He botched it. Carson no more believes in indiscriminate killing than Obama believes there are 57 states. But we’ll likely both go on mocking them both...

 

Good post.

I spent more than a decade doing bioremediation - getting bacteria to eat hydrocarbons in contaminated soil and groundwater .. I do a bunch of other microbiological testing as well. Saving the world does not pay that well. I now do biological corrosion - mostly in the oil and gas industry.

Obviously you are at least somewhat familiar with human taxonomy. Well sorry but, at least according to human taxonomy - the zygote does not cut it - not having the characteristics required. This is not to say that this should be the only indicator of personhood .. There are arguments from philosophy and bioethics .. and from other science.

I used the term Homo sapiens because this is what some religious right politicians tried to claim in legislation proposed. "Sanctity of life Act".

At the end of the day there are 5 different scientific perspectives: Metabolic, Genetic, Embryological, Neurological, Ecological. Only one puts the beginning of life at conception. (which is not even saying a human exists at this point .. just that something that can be classified as human exists - note the descriptive adjective use of the word human rather than the noun.

Obviously - "experts disagree".

IMO there are valid arguments for personhood in the later stages of pregnancy. I tend to favor the Neurological approach "Significant Brain function" - I would go further to suggest that this is the consensus position among most subject matter experts.

I took a Philosophy class - taught by a Jew who had his Ph.D from Oxford who was the editor of the Textbook we used (smart x 2) - Contemporary Moral Issues. We did 3 .. Pornography, Right to life, and some other I cant remember. Anyway - spent an entire month on the Abortion issue - learning the best arguments from both sides.

Sorry but - Carson does not even rank at the bottom end of the scale. He is an idiot in relation to the actual arguments in this debate - exemplified by commentary on the subject - which I took the liberty of looking up Sorry but - it is what it is.

Claiming that Darwin's theory of Evolution was influenced by Satan is equally idiotic - having more to do with sophisticated brainwashing techniques rather than having anything to do with Christianity.

Just because someone is really smart in one area - does not make them smart in all areas. I know a nuclear physicist - the brother of a very close friend - well .. I know a couple actually. If you are talking atoms smashing together all is good - anything else and the guy is a social misfit. In particular his political views are right off the turnip truck. Intelligence in one area does not negate one being very stupid in other areas. In fact .. if one is really good in one area that person is more likely to be really dumb in other areas - myself included.

 

Hopefully you are being bailed out by Trump

Negate is pretty strong. We know for example that there were not large tectonic shifts (as one poster tried to claim) such that pangea existed in 2400 BC - such that Kangaroos managed to migrate from the ark back to Australia over dry land. Nor does this account for continuous civilization throughout the flood period in any way shape or form. Nor the lack of flood layer.

Perhaps the Earth is not 4.5 Billion years old .. but, it is not 6000 years old. This we know for a fact (sans the idea that Satan or God messed everything up to trick modern scientists and even this does not make sense).

 

I have argued with people on here who were saying that a fetus developing limbs and a heart beat at 3 weeks old is not a human being. Do you agree with them?

 

No actually I do that quite often. Some people here are quite gullible.

 

That is a lie. Christians adopt children and babies all the time. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

My church has clothing and diaper hand outs all the time and if someone really needs help they get it. So you were saying?

 

I also want to add it's your side that keeps people poor by welfare thus they have less money to feed their kids.

 

Wait...you think Carson is the surgeon general? Why am I not surprised by this...hahaha

 

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

 

Do you trust Forbes or would you prefer a video from a smart person to explain it to you?
Let's start with Forbes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffre...term-help-and-long-term-poverty/#5976244732cd
"Welfare Offers Short-Term Help And Long-Term Poverty"

 

Nowhere in the article did it state it’s the Dems that keep people poor by welfare. In fact the article states “In one sense, the government’s approximately 100 different welfare programs (including Social Security) do an excellent job, lifting about 48 million people out of poverty.“
The biggest issue that hurts people is job training or lack there of. What have the Repubs done to change this? The Repubs have had ample opportunities to change the system but haven’t. What are they waiting for???

 

I'm not buying it