Dual loyalty? No. Single loyaltly.

Well, the white Europeans, who were Christians, eventually recognised that slavery is immoral and they eventually abolished it.

The white Europeans didn't immediately abolish slavery because of St. Paul's ambiguity in this regard.

The apostle Paul was a Jew and he followed Jewish moral standards. In the Epistle to the Corinthians and in other Pauline Epistles the Jew Paul supports the Jewish institution of slavery.

That is why Slavery was at the beginning accepted by Christians. But already in 1435 Christians agreed that the old Jewish morals are not compatible with the moral values of Europeans, and already in 1537 the Pope announced that slavery is immoral. That was due to the influence of North Europeans (Germanic people) who didn't have an institution of slavery, but had to accept it after the Christianisation.

So the Christians that owned slaves after 1537 were acting against the moral standards of the Christian church.

Not Jews, not Muslims, but white European Christians believed that slavery is immoral, speak is against the European moral values, and they were the first people who officially abolished slavery.

Judaism and Islam never changed their original attitude towards slavery.

It is obvious that after 1537 less Christians were involved in slave trade, than Jews or Muslims, because neither Islam nor Judaism changed their moral attitude to the issue of slavery.

Yes, and it was never reformed.

Is this the reason why so many Jews still stick to the stone-age morals of the Old Testament?

There are still a lot of Orthodox Jews, and their number is growing. They want to live according to their 3000 years old moral norms and dogmas, and that causes a lot of problems to Palestinians.

My ancestors?
What do you know about my ancestors?

If you are an Ashkenazi, then your Khazar ancestors converted to Judaism in the 9th century AD.

Before that time Khazars were savages.

These wild nomads and pagans were adherents of shamanistic cults at the time Europe already built its great cathedrals. They were cannibals that invaded sedentary European people and caused havoc to their civilization.

Believe me, your Ashkenazi ancestors had nothing to do with ancient Hebrews, the Palestinians are the descendants of people who lived in this region 2000 years ago.

Your Khazar ancestors lived in the Asian steppe and were Turkish nomads in the 5th century AD, this is supported by archeological, linguistic and even genetic evidence.

 

I don't know abt Khazars selling slaves or the origins of the English word "slave "

BUT Ooops -

I know great efforts are made for political reasons to deny a Khazar connection , yet according to Jewish Virtual , there's this I came across :

"The Reply of Joseph begins by referring to the principal contents of the Letter and recapitulates a number of its questions. It then relates the early history of the Khazars, and proceeds to deal at length with the conversion to Judaism under Būlān. The conversion is initiated by a dream of Būlān, which he communicates to a certain general among them (LV), apparently the beg. From the spoils of a Khazar attack on Ardabil, south of the Caucasus, for which we have the synchronism 730 in the Arabic sources, a tabernacle on the biblical model is set up. A religious debate between representatives of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is held, after which Būlān and the principal Khazars accept the religion of Israel. Under a later king, Obadiah, there was a reform of religion. Synagogues and schools were built, and the Khazars became familiar with Torah, Mishnah, Talmud, and the liturgy, i.e., rabbinic Judaism was introduced. Joseph then traces his descent from Obadiah and gives a description of his country and capital. He refers to Ḥisdai's question concerning the end of the age in a somewhat noncommittal fashion, and finally expresses his desire that Ḥisdai may come to Khazaria, which, if a notice in a map of Ibn Ḥawqal can be trusted, he actually did.

please read more - scroll 3/4 down to The Khazar Correspondence

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0012_0_11089.html


After the fall of the Khazar kingdom , its not unreasonable to presume many converted to Christian and some later to Islam - there's no telling how many remained faithful to Judaism and migrated northward. + spread into Central Europe.


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Aye to that. Describes denialists/conspiracy theorists perfectly.

 

Unfortunately in the United States many Christians today have failed to recognize that invidious discrimination and oppression based upon racial stereotyping is also immoral and continue to actively engage in it. Study after study in the US has documented this discrimination and oppression and we're not addressing it even though it is highly immoral. While invidious discrimination and oppression is spread across all groups we have studies that it is most wide spread among "conservatives" and "evangelical Christians" in the United States and, based upon their failure to address this immoral behavior, we can assume they don't consider it immoral.

We can also note on the issue of "dual loyalty" that these are the primary supporters of "Zionist" Israel in the United States and they outnumber all of the "Jewish" People in the entire world.

 

I've not yet come across anyone who said the it never happened, nor that it was GREATLY exaggerated. What is questioned is whether the numbers of Jewish victims was as many as claimed + the evidence concerning the circumstances of their deaths.
IMO its shameful that the deaths of however millions of people is today used to support /justify the post war Zionist political program . and the deaths used to extort vast sums for the Holocaust Industry.

To you , your opinion to me mine. (wink)

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I agree with much of what you've said , but ,apart from orgs I've read abt I..i.e. - JewsNotZionist/NetureiKarta etc. and writers labelled as "Self-hating Jews" I've not as yet come across any Jewish people here in England who do not support Zionism + the " Jewish state of Israel " Most of media is very heavily slanted in Israel's favour. .

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So where is the contradictions?
Can Turkish nomads not convert to Judaism and become Jews?
The Khazar elite converted to Judaism in the 8th century AD.
According to archeological evidence there was almost no pagan-style burials at the end of the 9th century AD, the burial culture became Jewish, and that proves that Judaism became not only the most dominant religion in Khazaria, but was also the most spread religion.

In any case, the trade of Khazaria was in the hands of the Khazar elite, including the slave trade, and it is an accepted fact that the Khazar elite was Jewish.

You can read about this in the Wikipedia.

Khazars became Jews, dude!
They converted to Judaism and became Jews!

Or do you still believe in the old BS about the "Jewish people" that stems from the ancient Hebrews?



BTW, I have already quoted the Jewish Encyclopaedia, and I will repeat it, here is the quote:

As we see, Jews were more involved in slave trade till the 10th century AD than an yother group.

Before the Khazar Empire was destroyed by the Rus, the Jewish slave trade flourished.

The wealth of many, many Jews from Spain or Germany was due to the Slavonic Slaves that were sold by the Khazars to their co-religionists in Prague, Worms or Cordoba.

Many slaves, owned by Jews, eventually became Jews (were circumcised etc. and then freed).

As we see, slave trade was a normal thing, and slaves were not necessarily badly treated.


BTW, one of the most prominent and influential Jewish Rabbi, Ovadia Yoseph, recently openly declared that non-Jews were created (according to his conception of Judaism) to serve the Jews, and he got away with it! He was never sued for his hate speech, and that means that this opinion is NOT illegal in Israel.

 

There are numerous problems not the least of which are that the "Zionists" (including both Jews and Non-Jews) are well organized while the Jews that oppose Zionism are not only generally not organized but are often denied even their Jewish status.

http://www.therecord.com/living-story/2576059-support-for-zionism-stirs-debate-in-jewish-community/

I've read more than once on Political Forum where self-proclaimed "Zionist Jews" have stated that any person claiming to be a Jew that is opposed to Zionism isn't really a Jew which goes along with the statement made above that "Part of being a Jew is to be Zionist" so if a person is an anti-Zionist they cannot be a Jew.

The two problems are inter-related because first there isn't an organized "anti-Zionist" movement per say in England (to my knowledge) that would gain media attention and those that are Jews that oppose Zionism aren't considered to the "real" Jews by the "Zionists" so the news media doesn't address them as being Jewish at all.

What the "news" media is predominately left with is the Islamic opposition the Zionist tyranny while the Pro-Zionists are propagating the false belief based upon invidious stereotyping that all Muslims are terrorists. The general opinion seems to be that a Muslim complaining about Zionist tyranny is not to be believed because they're all Islamic terrorists, that Jews that oppose Zionism are not Jews, and that the others opposing the tyranny of Zionism are automatically Islamic terrorist supporters which discredits their opinions.

 

there are several people here who have said that.

 

I think Jewish support tends to be in line proportionately with support more generally throughout society, although things are, I would argue, shifting the other way, albeit slowly within the mainstream. That's my impression, although I stand to be corrected on that. This support seems to me to be indicative of a right-wing narrative more generally. Most of the people I know (Jews and non-Jews), are from a left-wing background and their views on Israel are formulated on that basis, not on the basis of their Jewishness or lack thereof. I think that you underestimate greatly the extent to which Jews outwith Israel are opposed to neoZionism as an ideology and the fascist concept of a Greater Israel that this implies. Jews are not the kind of monolithic group you seem to think they are, no more than Muslims are or indeed anyone else for that matter. I think the notion that Jews outwith Israel identify and unconditionally support the actions of the Zionist state as a matter of course is a seriously misguided one. However, I do think it is churlish to deny there is a problem as far as Jewish support inside Israel itself is concerned which is reflected in the opinion polls. But even then, not all is what it sometimes appears on the surface.

 

No, not under strict orthodox Hebrew teachings which were more in place at the time. Under strict orthodox Jewish teachings a person is a "Jew" based upon matriarchal lineage and an orthodox Jewish woman can only marry a Jewish man.

We can note that over time the Jewish beliefs related on who is a Jew have changed where a more liberal definition has evolved that allowed "conversion" to the Hebrew religion but technically they are not hereditary Jews and never can be. They adopt the religion but cannot become a member of the "Jewish race" which is handed down by heredity.

So a person can believe in the Jewish religion but they are not nor would they or their decedents be Jews but a person, based upon their matriarchal heritage would always be a Jew regardless of their religious "practices".

 

In other words, he has freedom of speech, was that your point? Because he wasn't sued, it means his opinion is legal? Well, who exactly COULD have sued him for saying that?

The logic escapes me.

 

WTF - Should I care ? -

imo - each person is fully entitled to think for themselves + to draw their own conclusions

 

You are using a version of the Jewish encyclopedia that is over 100 years old. Much research has been done since, but the one thing that is clear. Jews never played a major role in the slave trade.

- - - Updated - - -

or lies but that is why I said it and I never said Jews didn't engage in slavery....

 

whether its "legal/schmegal" who cares , certainly not Rabbis like him who are , after all the Lawmakers. .

Having been to Israel on a Holyland tour - I saw/witnessed some things I did not expect, I'd say Rabbi Ovadia verbalized the attitude which most Israelis have towards non-Jews. He's got a substantial following and Shas Party has considerable political influence.


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Where and when did I say Jews was a monolithic group ? All Jews are alike ?

DUH !

I disagree , and have not found a shred of evidence - any opinion polls etc. which disputes overwhelming diaspora Jewish support for Zionism and the Jewish state of Israel.

But , if you can prove me wrong , I'm fully prepared to reconsider my opinion re : Jewish support for Zionism here in Britain.


.... . . Pls read Shivas post #633

 

Att_Allm does since he brought it up.

There's parties out there that express a wide range of opinions and political beliefs. I'm quite sure Airstrip-One has a number of odious political parties as well; does one of them represent the whole of Brit-Cit? Of course not. Same for Israel.

 

actually the only reason they have influence is because they vote as a block but has only a small number of members. And I don't know who you talked to but the vast number os Israelis do not thing like him. That is simply not true.

 

I disagree

There are many more similar to Shas Have you ever listened to the Settler Jews + Leaders /members of Yisrael Beiteinu , etc., ?

btw - Have you read Bendor's posts on this forum ? What's your opinion of him ? Have you not noticed the bigotry + hate in his posts .

IMO he's is a good example of the average Israeli.

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see this : :

"Israelis favour discrimination against Arabs - poll

A majority of Israeli Jews favour introducing discriminatory policies against the country's Arab population and would support an "apartheid" system in the West Bank if it were ever annexed, an opinion poll has shown.

By Adrian Blomfield, Jerusalem

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...favour-discrimination-against-Arabs-poll.html


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Daft comparison again. We've got nothing as racist + powerful as Likud / the Jewish settllers + the rest i.e. Eretz Yisrael Shelanu,/ Jewish National Front/Chai/Otzma LeYisrael
/ in Britain. Thank gawd.

Kach + Kahane chai might ostensible have ben banned but its members are still very active in the policies of other Right Wing political parties

They might appear to be small parties but collectively they represent a substantial voice of Israel's Jewish electorate. .

...

 

Figured you couldn't support your contentions. Such is usually the case when the only reply to a serious request for proof is that the requester is 'trolling.'

88!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party

88!

 

Sorry, I thought you regularly referred to Jews in the generic sense. I must be confusing you with somebody else.

All of the diaspora Jews I know hate the Zionist state with a vengeance. Perhaps you mix in the wrong political circles.

 

please try to concentrate on the subject under discussion.. thx .