French Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson dies at 89

Please define your interpretation of European, WW2 era "holocaust denial" & why it is more reprehensible than Nakba denial, Holodomor denial etc

 

Oh gimme a break. Read Mein Kampf. REview the nazi propaganda on jews.

As for discussing multiple facets, not a problem. ONE OF THOSE FACETS IS THE FACT THAT THE NAZI'S HATED JEWS TO SUCH AN EXTENT THEY ATTEMPTED THEIR EXTERMINATION.

Sorry, I am not civil to holocaust deniers, facists and jew haters. As for the fragility of denialism, I agree, its built on bullshit and propagated by narrow minded jew haters and nazi apologists.

There were many German mischlings by blood not faith. Loyal Germans who were not raised as jews or who were completely removed from their jewish "grandparent" etc. A few full blood jews hid in the wehrmacht by necessity.

The mischling laws were all about "blood" ties. Nothing else. Nothing to do with that person's beliefs or upbringing. Those laws were also unevenly applied.
But I can see how you would attempt to use this idiotic excuse as evidence that the holocaust didn't happen. That its all a jew plot to make money. After all, denialists have to twist facts to stuff them into their perverse interpretation of what happened.

You have constantly demonstrated this "technique"and even now you present the old "jews in german army" argument as if it was some sort of evidence that jews weren't targetted for extermination. Not to mention, did you actually read Rigg's book you'd have an understanding of how those mischlings found their way into hitler's army. The nuremberg laws were confusing and unevenly applied as Rigg continually emphasizes in it.

Seems your lame superficial attempt at justification of denialism bullshit is just another typical example of the clownish low intellect "evidence" considered ripe fruit for people of your ideological persuasion.

You still don't get it. My behavior towards those who hold ideologies I am bigoted against is DELIBERATE. I particularly despise fascists, holocaust deniers, jew haters, religious fanatics and commies and express my utter lack of respect for them as pointedly as possible.
After all this time, you should know that since you were around in the Jack Napier days around here.[/QUOTE]

 

Is there some competition about which catastrophe is morally superior? What exactly is your point? Oh right default to whataboutery.

 

I disagree with your premise. Not being a historian and not having been there at that time, I am not sure exactly what did or did not transpire during those years. However I make a huge distinction between those Nazis that I have met here in America who accept the narrative that you do and applaud Hitler and the Nazis for killing Jews and wish he had killed more and those that suggest that there are gross exaggerations accepted as historical fact that they deny ever happened. Locking people up for this so called Holocaust denial is disgusting in my opinion. I am glad that at least in my country we have the freedom to express our opinion without fear of imprisonment. The way Farrusian and others were treated is a testament to what scumbags those who assaulted, imprisoned and disparaged him truly were in my opinion. Beating or imprisoning those who disagree with you is disgusting behavior whether you happen to think they are wrong or losers. Cheers

 

When such intellectual bankruptcy is proffered as "serious historical research and revision" it is blatantly obvious that it is motivated by ideology and bigotry.

I get that the nazi's you;ve met in america are extreme jew haters and that some such scumbags think he didn't do a good enough job while being perfectly okay with the actual historical narrative. And then there are the extreme knuckle draggers that think it never happened based on the laughable bullshit of the "movement".

Holocaust denial is NOT a cover for jew hate, which is why its considered hate speech in some countries that EXPERIENCED it. Its not the law that is disgusting, its the scumbags spewing their odious bullshit.

 

I disagree. I do not think that all of these so called Holocaust deniers are kunckle draggers or Jew Haters. I also believe that those who assaulted Farrusian are gutless scumbags and should have been imprisoned in place of those who have been imprisoned for voicing their opinions. One of the posters here on our forum, Jazz was alive in those years and has a different perspective than you. I do not consider her to be a knuckle dragged or a Jew Hater. I fully support closely watching and prosecuting those Nazis here who believe your narrative and churn out literature to round up a gang and incite them to commit acts like the scum who shot those people in Squirrel Hill, right near where I grew up on Saturday. I would understand if members of the Jewish community confronted those kind of people violently. However what was done to Farrusian and others for their research and voicing their opinions on these matters is still disgusting in my opinion.

 

I have no doubt that some hitler youth still alive would doubt the stories.

She is one motivated by her early indoctrination - her dear leader and the glorious german people couldn't possibly have done it and its all a jew plot.

What was done to Faurisson, Campognolo, Butz, Rassinier, Rudolph, Leuchter, Ball, Irving and the rest of that sorry arsed crowd was based on the GARBAGE quality of their "research" and "academic findings". Their "interpretations" fraught with psuedo-science, fallacy and outright bullshit.

And the people who actually believe them are sure as hell knuckle draggers incapable of overcoming their entrenched emotionally driven biases nor of recognizing bullshit in the guise of "scholarship".

That doesn't mean that history can't always stand to be revised as new information comes to light. In the case of Israel's "new historians" they CHANGED the narrative entirely because their works were based on hard irrefutable evidence. In the case of Holocaust denier historians it has only garnered them ridicule, derision and disgust. And it should also be noted that in the last few years vast treasure troves of nazi documents have been made available to academia. Lots of confirming evidence to support the accepted narrative and NOTHING exculpatory.

Any time you want to get a good laugh, you should watch Mr. Death, the Fred Leuchter story on youtube. Absolutely hilariously incompetent.

 

There are people who simply deny the Holocaust because of sentiment against Jewish people in the same way there are people who will deny any merit in Holocaust denial because they don't like Holocaust deniers or have been trained to bark at the first mention of it.

Questioning a fact is an academic practice. No one should be shamed or insulted for questioning a fact. There is no reason not to question it. It's not like the people who supply the narrative have been unimpeachable in their honesty and disclosure and the actual story they supply is so full of holes they had to make it illegal to question it in order for it to stand.

 

Every one is pointing to this "mountain of evidence" but I can't find it on any maps...

Testimony is not evidence. Whether someone chooses to believe it is I have no control over. I don't take anyone's testimony into account because I can't prove either right or wrong. I look for clear, demonstrable evidence. I think...if you revisited all the things you claim are evidence with this idea in your head, you will realize just how much of it isn't proof that the Holocaust occurred to the extent people say it has.

 

As I said, I am not a historian and certainly not a Holocaust historian or revisionist. However I have read a good deal about it coming from both perspectives. My inclination is to stand on the side of freedom of thought and freedom of speech and against scumbag thugs like the gutless punks that brutally assaulted Mr Faurisson while he was walking his dog or the European Courts who took away his freedom to put forth his point of view. In my view they are more akin to the human filth who shot up the Tree of Life Saturday than Faurisson, Butz, Zündel or any other revisionists. I have read some of the court rulings and they are about as kangaroo as it gets and the young punks that attacked a 60 year old man 3 on 1 belong right there with what they are alleging the Germans did to their ancestors. Although I respect you and usually agree with your take on current events, I think you are way on wrong side of this deal. Cheers

 

I haven't been trained to bark at the first mention of it. I have been combatting this bullshit for decades and am intimately familiar with all of its so called "evidence" supplied by a long list of "academics" and bullshit artists.

I have no problem with serious academic investigation. But that is not what holocaust denial is all about. Its about attempting to discredit the narrative, rehabilitate fascism, and express jew hate.

I am well aware of the various apocryphal stories of the holocaust that have proven to be bullshit. I am aware of the few con artists attempting to take advantage of reparations. And many rather little known events, particularly in the war's aftermath were not included in the main narrative of events. But none of that amounts to anything remotely close to evidence it never happened. Despite it being a staple of the denier rhetorical strategy.


11. The Great Leap -- This tactic goes like this: If one piece of testimony about the Holocaust seems unreliable, then ALL testimony about the Holocaust is unreliable. If one Holocaust witness may have recanted something on the stand, then all other Holocaust witnesses are liars. If some camp prisoners did not starve to death, then NONE of them starved to death. etc. But be careful. This is a double-edged sword -- someone may use the well-documented lies of other revisionists to conclude that YOU are a liar as well.

 

Of course testimony is evidence. Unless of course the entire justice system is out of whack.

What a nonsensical perspective.

The mountain of evidence - Start with this which totally debunks both Rudolph and Leuchter.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/

Then listen to himmler's speeches to the SS.

Then review the documents for the gas tight doors.

Then read the transcripts from the trial of the inventor of Zyklon B.

Then read the CONFESSIONS of literally thousands of nazis and camp sondercommandos.

But of course you are above the fray and only interested in academic truth. But it seems no amount of "evidence" will convince you at least judging by your "testimony is not evidence" nonsense,

 

You could start here
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/apr/18/opening-un-holocaust-files-archive-war-crimes-commission

but you will need to do a lot of work. I put on the tv yesterday and by fluke there was a program on the holocaust. It was just a reminder of how much evidence there is and how much I have seen, just looking here and there....and it wasn't just Jews.

I read the holocaust deniers when I came online. What I think made me consider was that the only gas camps were found by Russia and I know how honest Russia was about things at that time...even had it been that the Nazis did not gas Jews, that would not change the reality that they had taken whole villages away and shot them - sometimes sending the men to work camps and killing the women and children.

But we do also know that the Nazis did gas people. They gassed their own people and they gassed people in vans in early camps before they got things organised. They were talking about that last night.

If Jazz was ten at the end of the war she was 5 when it began. She doesn't know about killing camps. No one would have told her about them. Indeed her attitude seems to have been very typical of German attitudes at the time. The worst atrocities were done out of sight. Most Jews were murdered before Auschwitz was even open. I met a German in the mid 70's who told me of his disgust at the adults of that era, how they had not changed. Since then I have heard many people speaking about how this was. I found some material a couple of weeks ago where even people who were admitting they had done atrocities did not seem to understand that what they had done was wrong. That possibly is the most strange thing for us to understand but this was a different world. I have heard many times including from a German on a forum that it was the generation who came after the war who confronted their parents generation and who did see where their parents often did not that what they did was wrong.

One person cannot give you even a glimpse. In order to know you need to take ages to learn and my feeling is that if you do not have that commitment and interest to do so you do not spit in the face of those whose own were killed - which is what Holocaust denial really is.

The number may not be exact. I hear the most common number people give now is around 5,200,000 which is the number that Hilberg came up with in one of the first books 'The Destruction of Europe's Jews'. He also, despite the fact people were claiming that 4,000,000 were killed at Auschwitz, came up with the correct number by himself then. I think it is around 4,700,000 Jews who have been identified as perishing. We do not even need to discuss it if people are not determined to deny it.

If you look at the link I gave you, you will discover that research and interest sort of stopped in 1940 when Germany was wanted as an allie against the Soviets.

The Holocaust is not the only time of horror in the world and it is sometimes abused but it did happen and if you want to prove me wrong you need to prove it. It is to be hoped we do not sink so low again but we can if we forget what we can be like and that is what the women whose grand parents were nazis who I left a link to, is concerned is happening in Europe now. I see on this forum a lot of people talking about Muslims in just the same kind of way they used to talk about Jews. I see people talking about the Roma just like they used to talk about the Roma.

 

Oh? now your resort to fallacious equivalency?

OTOH, I agree that the anecdote of Prof. Faurisson's attack was thuggish and legally and ethically unjustifiable.

But I also get your use of anecdotal evidence to support your support of denialists and denialism. It isn't against the law to deny the holocaust in most countries that didn't experience it first hand with populations where a goodly % of their citizens at the time participated in. I figger its up to them to determine if this indelible stain on their national honor should not be erased by bullshit revisionism.

BTW - They aren't alleging what their german ancestors did, they have CONVICTED AND CONDEMNED THEM FOR WHAT THEY DID.

I quite enjoy the climate on my side, regardless of your perception of it.

 

'Only the good die young'

 

You're absolutely right. WW2 was the last 'genuine' war, all others since that time were political endeavors and constraining of dictators or terrorists, or for control of oil. no real wars since WW2.

Not many realize that although the Jews were specifically segregated and targeted for complete and total annihilation, (a total of 17 million Jews were killed in Poland, Russia, Germany, Lithuania, Latvia, and western Ukraine), many nations suffered tremendous loss of life. Russia suffered an incredible loss of life with over 16 million soldiers and civilians killed, that was 15% of their entire population. China had 20 million that died during those times.

I had 4 uncles that enlisted in the Navy during WW2. Two were Navy Seabees, and constructed military bases, roads and bridges for the incoming troops in the S. Pacific theater. One was a communications specialist aboard an aircraft carrier. Three of my four uncles were fortunate and returned home after the war, one died aboard the U.S.S. West Virginia battleship which was docked at Pearl Harbor in 1941 when the Japanese bombed the harbor. It was his death that spurred the other 3 brothers to join the Navy.

Younger generations don't have those emotional scars to remind them of the cost of war, but I do. I lost a great deal of the men in my high school senior class to the senseless "conflict" in Vietnam. Not only do we never want another genocidal Holocaust, we surely don't want another world war because it will be the last one we ever have.

 

Thank goodness this freak is dead. Now if we can get the rest to follow him....

 

Thank you, Jack, for the honorable mention!
I fully agree with you and resent being slandered by these brainwashed Hasbara nincompoops. They are just programmed, rude know-nothings.

John De Nugent writes about Robert Faurisson:

Remembering tonight the late, great Robert Faurisson, a giant among men.
Remembering tonight the late, great Robert Faurisson, a giant among men. I spoke with him and had email correspondence too with this saint and hero, whose aura was life, and who radiated love for our people, and who spoke the truth about Germany — and those wicked slime who defame it.

(Seen in the middle in this photo at the 2006 Teheran Holocaust truth conference)

Robert Faurisson:
“The alleged Hitlerite gas chambers and the alleged genocide of the Jews constitute one and the same historical lie, which made possible a gigantic financial-political fraud, the principal beneficiaries of which are the State of Israel and international Zionism, and whose principal victims are the German people — but not their leaders — and the entire Palestinian people.”
Robert Faurisson, the famous “60 words sentence”, formulated in 1980.

No wonder the Zionist thugs beat him up and broke his jaw!!

In the link you can Listen to an interview, 2 hrs. long!
And here are some separate topics to explore:

• 1 Life
• 2 Views, work and criticism
• 3 Persecution
• 4 See also
• 5 Notes
• 6 External links

https://www.johndenugent.com/remembering-tonight-the-late-great-robert-faurisson-a-giant-among-men/

 

It’s up to 17 million now...

 

I remember having read there were only between 15 and 16 million Jews worldwide before the war started!! And get this... after the war there were still around 15 million! Of course, you can't find those numbers anymore now... that was perhaps 20 years ago when I read it.

Jonsa, in post #245, stated there were only 1 million Jews killed by the Germans.
Good Grief, it is getting less and lesser!

 

I think the whole is also to be considered in terms of abuse of the constitutional right to Freedom of Speech.

Can one abuse such a right? The answer is clearly yes and the worst form is abusing this constitutional right to abolish the constitution that guarantees the right.
Just all extremists of every kind are those who want to abolish our constitutions in whole or in part ... But then in their fight and the speeches, etc. then again on their constitutional right to "Freedom of speech" ... so the constitution who fight them. And insanely, the right to Freedom of Speech for these extremists is the first constitutional right, what they will abolish, as history shows with countless examples!
A democracy must be defenseless and defend itself against attacks ... against attacks from outside, but also attacks from within!
And in this context, my government casts doubt on the fact that this scum of extremists then also the constitutional right to Freedom of Speech is entitled and that is why we believe that is then punishable by law!

 

There is no "competition" in your mind as you clearly believe that only the suffering of Jewish individuals is worthy of veneration, innumerable holocaust theme parks, eternal German shame and, of course, untold $ Billions in reparations much of which has been embezzled by minions of what Norman Finkelstein calls "The Holocaust Industry".

All other mass atrocities even those greater in scope around the world are merely annoying distractions from your "one & only historically significant 'The Holocaust'®"

Most rational & fair minded individuals consider the suffering of people in all mass tragedies equally profound & worthy of remembrance regardless of race, creed or color.

If you were genuinely concerned about defending the victims of pan European Jewish persecution, you would direct your white hot hatred toward the swindlers(1) who have defrauded Jewish survivors and consigned them to live their last years in abject poverty(2),(3).

Your far easier & more comfortable pastime seems to be verbally abusing less gullible individuals who did not so eagerly embrace a specious & one dimensional indoctrination.



(1) "HOLOCAUST CLAIMS CONFERENCE FRAUD LIKELY ‘MUCH HIGHER’ THAN $57 MILLION"
http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Holoc...aud-likely-much-higher-than-57-million-408298


(2) "Holocaust survivors struggling to make ends meet in Israel"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/holocaust-survivor-struggle-money-israel


(3) "15 months after reparations paid, Holocaust survivors have yet to see money"
http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-86151111/

EXCERPT "It was touted as a historic moment, when survivors would finally be compensated for a French railroad's role in the Holocaust."CONTINUED

 

I think, one, you have a heavy bias. You approach this subject so vehemently and defensively and you've already made the false claim that questioning the Holocaust is synonymous with fascism and anti-Semitism. You're already claiming to know what is not true. At this point I'm questioning your credibility as an unbiased buff on the topic. And the idea that you've been "battling this bull for decades" seems a little self-indulgent and hyperbolic.

The Great Leap is a thing, but it does not apply to this argument. The Great Leap applies when the pieces that are unreliable or false and inconsequential to the core idea. However, with the Holocaust, there are a number of red flags when discussing the Holocaust on all metrics. Second, there is no information directly supporting the idea of the Holocaust as it is officially presented. I believe that brutal acts of violence and indiscriminate slaughter were actuated, but I have seen nothing to suggest that this went as far as what is claimed. This is my basic position on the issue.

 

What a bullshit strawman.

I said nothing about other genocides that have taken place in history.

I was specifically talking about the "final solution".

I also understand your deep resentment of the fact that the Nazi's industrialized genocidal murder campaign is particularly centered out as one of the most heinous crimes against humanity in history.

Seems you can't stomach the fact that your precious nazis stole billions in jewish and european assets and that germany was morally and legally forced to make reparations.

You can't stomach the fact that since the jews were so viciously and deliberately enslaved and murdered the world (and the jews) made a big deal over it.


And yes, there are con artists attempting to exploit "holocaust guilt". There are even liars who made up crap about what happened to them. Interestingly of the billions and billions of reparations the "higher than $57 million in fraud would make the multi government program rather efficient and accurate.

But keep whining and spouting revisionist bullshit. Small things and all.

 

No, I am not heavily biased, I AM BIGOTED AGAINST DENIALISTS AND FASCISTS AND SUPREMACISTS/NATIONALISTS. I make no bones about the fact that I feel as adamant about those scumbags as they do about the subjects of their hatreds and bigotry. My moral code includes "do unto others as they do unto others".

And legitimate questioning of the accepted historical narrative is perfectly acceptable. Agenda driven bullshit along with its psuedo scientific arguments is not a legitimate questioning. Its a lame attempt at nazi apologism/rehabilitation and an on going expression of jew hate. Too nuanced for the likes of denialists, I am sure.

There is a TON of information that supports the accepted narrative that the nazis deliberately attempted to exterminate the jews (et.al). Somehow you think that the perpetrators of such a massive crime would NOT attempt to cover it up. Indeed nazi actions in the closing stages of the war speak directly to their efforts to eradicate as much of the evidence as possible. Notwithstanding their efforts they couldn't eliminate it all.
Nor could they eliminate all the perpetrators of the crime nor the surviving witnesses. They couldn't eliminate the forensic evidence. They couldn't eliminate all of the documentation. That you apparently are unaware of the mountain range of evidence is not surprising.

That's my basic position on the issue.