Greece: Even crazier than we thought.

Your line of argument is absurdly illogical. How is a school dinner lady who pays her tax at source via PAYE to blame for the policies undertaken by government decision-makers which resulted in the rich and many within the self-employed and private sector avoiding paying their taxes and putting their money in offshore accounts? Your argument seems to be that because the public sector workers who pay their taxes and are relatively well paid compared to the private sector who avoid theirs, the wage levels of the former have to be brought down to the levels of the latter. This 'race to the bottom' mentality is in nobody's interest.

 

The public sector is THE major voting block in Greece. there are over 700,000 of them. The population of the country is 11.3 million...think about that...It is why they are in fact getting 50% more in pay and benefits than the average taxpayer...they are a major reason why the specific politicians, the ones we now are saying made wild promises using borrowed money, were in power. 27% of the total Greek budget goes directly to those folk...they elected the very folk who provided them with the inflated salaries and benefits and then borrowed money to pay for it...How can you not assign equal blame...now consider Greece has the largest tax evasion rate in the EU...they not only wanted to get free stuff but they (as a society) had no intention to individually pay their 'fair share'...that was what the banks were for, making loans to keep the largess coming.

THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH!

Where is the logic in the free lunch?

 

You have made it clear that you are approaching this from an ideological perspective - private good, public bad. You claimed that public sector workers like dinner ladies, police, teachers, firefighters, doctors and nurses, are to blame for the crisis which is plainly absurd.

 

That is a strawman...I more closely said "Private poor/public well to do"...when the citizens elect dolts, then they do have some responsibilities for their excesses

 

It's not a strawman. The electorate comprise a variety of sections of society, from both the private and public sectors but you've put the blame on those in the public sector. What you apparently fail to grasp is that those within the private sector, whether poor or rich, DON'T pay their fair share of taxes, if any at all. On the other hand, those within the public sector, whether poor or rich, DO pay their taxes IN FULL because it is taken from them at source. Those within both sectors are entitled to vote and they voted for anti austerity.

 

Just exactly what, aside from a nifty slogan, does 'anti Austerity' mean? Does that mean the nation will govern within its means or does it mean they simply expect to find another sugar daddy to pay their bills? Everyone is entitled to a vote but everyone is also responsible for the results of that vote, or do you pretend only the private sector voted for the government that borrowed all the loot and made all the promises?

 

The idea that Greece can reign in 175% debt to GDP by gathering more taxes and getting money from broke countries like Italy is pretty lolsome. I guess they are hoping to get some from the French as well but here's my prediction: this is only going to make their crash look worse when the other ailing countries refuse to help them out.

 

Greece is a pretty small country. I figure the only reason they really matter at all is because their approaching collapse symbolizes the broader failure of "soft socialism." Once the Greek position enters no-go territory as various communist systems have, the window closes a bit more in terms of the promises that leftist politicians can make and the goals they can set.

 

Neat deflection. Can I take it that you are now retracting from your absurd view that refuse collectors, school dinner ladies and health care workers who pay their taxes in full at source are to blame for the crisis?

 

How hard is this for you? The issue is not any controversy about trash collectors and school dinner ladies getting more for their work than other folk in the private sector...They are, simple fact. I see no need to discuss what is an obvious and easily proven fact to the real issue...People are demanding 'anti-Austerity'. Just what does that mean aside from its value as an empty minded slogan? It appears all it means is Greece simply wants to trade sugar daddies while ignoring their debt to their old creditors...I simply do not see Russia or China dropping billions a year into Greece forever while the citizens continue to live in a style way above their means.

 

Are you going to retract that obviously absurd comment or not?

 

Anti austerity means opposition to the ideologically-based politics of the kind you apparently support, that is, the insistence that those who are not responsible for the crisis pay for it by way of retrenchment.

 

You do not seem to get it...Perhaps if I type larger...ONE DOES NOT RETRACT AN EASILY PROVEN TRUTH!

so, no...I stand by the truth. In Greece public sector workers make 50% more than their counterparts in the private sector...That does not mean that every single cafeteria worker makes 50% more than the highest paid cafeteria worker in the private sector but that the average public sector worker makes 50% more than the average private sector employee...Fact, not debatable and deserving of emphasis, not retraction...

As Samuel Johnson once wrote "I have found you an argument. I am not obliged to find you understanding"...Just because you cannot figure out this simple truth does not mean I have to retract it.

 

Economics is NOT ideology...money does not appear like magic on trees. There is no free lunch. As long as Greece continues to spend vastly more money than it makes and expects, no demands, its creditors not only accept no payment for their loans but worse, continue to pour money into the rat hole that is Greek economics, no simple minded slogan can repair the situation. The only way the Greek situation can be solved is by accepting that they have to live closer to their means, they have to pay back much of the money borrowed and the people who elected the politicians who entered into those loans and who received, and still receive, largess from this foreign money assume some of the responsibility for the disaster they themselves elected. For our sins, the USA elected Obama and we, the individual Obama voter and supporter, are responsible for the disaster he has turned out to be. This is exactly the same...folk demanded something for nothing and are shocked to find the bill in their mail...As we all know, bills are to be paid by other folk, not ourselves. Ask the anti-Austerity folk...

 

It's obviously not a truth since they pay their taxes at source unlike those in the private sector who don't. They did not cause the crisis so why are they expected to pay for it by way of retrenchment? Your absurd 'race to the bottom' argument is that public sector workers have to have a cut in their already low living standards (austerity) to match the even lower living standards of those in the private sector predicated on a crisis that the former had nothing to do with. Your argument is absurd.

 

Your entire premise is flawed. The notion that it's vital governments' balance budgets as if they operated like that akin to managing household budgets is a false argument. Greece accepts that it needs to to redress its excesses and the terms of that redress is what is being negotiating as we speak. The reason why the Greek people elected a centre left anti-austerity party into power is because they, unlike you, grasp that the public sector workers who by and large voted them into power were not responsible for a crisis caused by others.

 

That does not matter....that they pay their taxes when others do not is not the issue, and is a distraction...They do vote and they voted for the politicians who insured they made more than those folk who do not pay taxes. In addition, to this day the total tax revenues from all the tax payers is almost 3/4 less than the government spends and that government routes 27% of that spending directly to those public sector employees as salary and benefits...27% of a bloated budget on less than 10% of the population...They are reaping what they sowed.If one elects politicians on the stated guarantee that benefits will continue when they are elected, then when the politicians fail, the folk who elected them have the responsibility...

This wild idea that folk not getting the direct benefit of the overspending are more responsible than the folk who did get the goodies is absurd on its face. It would be laughable if it was not so tragic.

 

Well, they voted for a party who defend their interests, as opposed to a pro-austerity party who don't, who would have thought it? You have yet to explain how people who pay their taxes at source are the cause of the crisis.

 

No, they do not have to balance their budget, they do, however, have to understand where the money they spend that is not in the revenues comes from and that it has limits. That is the failing, the idea that there is an unlimited pot of other folks
money.

I have to ask, if the folk who elected the politicians who borrowed money they could not pay back and routed that borrowed money directly to the blameless public sector (who again voted for those politicians) are not responsible who IS responsible? You are not going to pretend evil banks expected the Greeks to not pay their bills....That is a bizarre idea. It is like a beggar on the street blaming the folk who put money in his hat for not providing enough for him to live in the style he would like to become accustomed ....How dare they only leave dollars when he want $50's....those evil greedy do gooders...

If the citizens of Greece will not pay their debts, why do you believe anyone still has a responsibility to give them money?

 

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I am not saying that the current Greek government does not have to correct the errors made by it's predecessor. In fact, I've already highlighted that they are negotiating the terms of any potential repayment. What I AM saying is that the burden should not be disproportionately placed on the shoulders of those in the public sector who actually paid their taxes. Clearly, this is also what the Greek people themselves acknowledged by voting a centre left party into power whose campaigning strategy centred on anti-austerity. It's not a complicated issue but you seem intent on making it one.

 

'Anti-Austerity is a slogan. It has no meaning in the real world. If one is going to bring the nations fiscal house into order, one needs to note what another famous man said

You cannot fix anything unless you acknowledge where the money is currently going, largely to the public sector. The reason you say it is not complicated is because you seem to think that money is magic...It's not. It had to come from somewhere and go somewhere. Greece has issues with both concepts. Until and unless the folk getting the money realize they themselves have to take responsibility for some of the issue, it will not, no CAN not be fixed.

 

Anti-austerity has real objective meaning as I've already outlined. Blaming the Greek crisis on the workers who actually paid their taxes, is about as absurd as it gets. Clearly you won't address the issues because you can't.

 

I cannot address the 'real' issues because you do not seem to be discussing real economics...If you do not cut the spending where it goes, you cannot cut spending and anti-austerity simply means you do not desire or intend to live within your means BUT, you have no idea where to find the billions necessary to do that...

It's gibberish economics

???????

 

Now you are projecting based upon another issue. Now please focus. You claimed that the crisis was the fault of public sector workers like street cleaners, grounds maintenance workers, ambulance drivers, hospital workers and teachers. These are the kinds of workers who actually pay their taxes in full at source. You would have a point if you were to assert that the crisis was the fault of the tax dodging private sector, but you don't because as clear as night follows day, your entire position is predicated on ideology not rationality.

 

Don't you understand? If every single person payed all of their 'fair share' , all of it, then the government would still need to borrow billions and billions of dollars that they have no intention of paying back. It is not the fault of the normal tax evading citizen that the public sector gets the lions share of the benefits of government money...No matter how you spin it, they still get 150% of what their neighbor, average private sector guy, makes.

Anti-Austerity as a policy cannot work as the bills must be paid. If rejected the money flood stops and the austerity of no money applies...

Anti-Austerity is a bogus policy. It means nothing at all. There is no such a thing unless they find a money mine on Mt Olympus....No one will lend Greece serious money year after year that will not be paid back.