How do Democrats feel about Bernie looking like the eventual nominee?

That’s where the Crazy from Crazy comes from. Well that and his hair.

 

Everybody has one in Europe and nobody seems to care in the least ...

 

One guy on the internet said he would rather suck on door knobs in Wuhan China than vote for Bernie.

 

No sane person does support that - and Bernie does not support that.

 

I've never heard her say anything remotely like what you claim. Can you offer links to videos that show her making such statements?

 

To list just a few things. . .
They would work WITH out long time allies in a cooperative manner instead of Trump's contesting one.
They would work with our adversaries in a much more careful way, rather than as if they were trusted, long-term friends like Trump does.
They would expand healthcare access to include MORE Americans rather than try to force millions off healthcare like Trump is doing.
They would use American economic power as a partner with other nations to improve living conditions in the world for all people, rather than disengage from the world in a renewal of isolationism.
They would use their power as President to SERVE the people of the country rather than use it to further enrich themselves & their families.
They would re-instill trust in government & a free press, & try to repair the extensive damage done to both by Trump during his Presidency.
And more. . .

 

Elizabeth Warren proposes criminal penalties for spreading voting disinformation online

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/29/war...ties-for-spreading-disinformation-online.html

Who gets to decide what constitutes "Disinformation" ?

The safeguards protecting essential liberty are there for a reason. That this safeguard puts essential liberty "ABOVE" the legitimate authority of Gov't - is what it is for a reason.

The Establishment is going after free speech, freedom of information, freedom of the Press ... Hard. I assume that you are aware of this - if not - think Assange and Russiagate.

The idea that Russia will have some significant influence over the 2020 election ... is preposterous nonsense on steroids. Don't get me wrong - there are many different foreign entities that exert influence over our electoral process - Russia is not one of the significant ones.

Warren knows this. She preaches this message for Goodness sake - railing against the big money influence in our system (which is one of the reasons I had some respect for Warren and thought she might be Anti Establishment).

I get a politician keeping low key on this elephant in the Russiagate room - got it - it was not politically expedient. That's different.

To proactively make legislation on the basis of this Russiagate nonsense ??? WTF.

Any respect I had for Warren disappeared - immediately - on hearing this.

 

[QUOTE="LafayetteBis, post: 1071470293, member: 72696"![/QUOTE]

So do the French still believe in Liberty ? - or is that nation too now afflicted with the plague of Utilitarianism as justification for Law ?

 

Russia was indeed a significant influence in the getting Donald Dork elected. And it is at it again.

See here from this run-down of the many ways it interferes: Russian Hacking and Influence in the US Election

You are blinding yourself to the facts of the matter ...

 

In four years of seeing Trump dominate the media, I've never understood his appeal to the voters who support him. Honestly, it's been a complete conundrum for me. Your post helped me a bit to see that side, & I appreciate it. I have gradually evolved thru life toward valuing cooperation among people more than competition. I feel competition creates more losers than winners. We need more winners. Trump is totally competitive, so most of us average Americans become losers under his leadership. I understand that many people are motivated & admire strong individuals, & enjoy following their leadership. I'm not one of them. I admire a Gandhi, or a Jesus, or a Pope Francis 1 more. So, I agree with you that we disagree. But I respect your right to differ just as much as I respect my own. Thank you for your insightful honesty.

 

You make a very good point. I too am concerned. The disinformation is so rampant now, it's getting hard to know who to trust. I hold Trump personally responsible for infecting America with this problem. It's one of many very good reasons for defeating him in November. I sincerely hope we do.

 

1. I read the article in your link. Warren is saying the media outlets have a responsibility to ID & halt publication or broadcast of disinformation that is designed to disenfranchise of discourage voting--especially from foreign sources. I see nothing here to disagree with. It protects our individual right to vote & protects our domestic elections too. I see no threat here to freedom of speech, though I DO see a threat to that freedom of speech from too many sources of disinformation.
2. We enjoy many personal & individual freedoms in America, but none of our freedoms are unlimited. Laws provide important boundaries to those freedoms, & most of us are amenable to those boundaries. It's when some of us begin questioning any boundaries at all that we're in trouble. Unbounded freedom allows more abuse by those empowered by wealth, position, family, etc. Those limitations under law are also there to protect our freedoms.
3. Trump is now the "Establishment," & you're right, he IS going after those freedoms.
4. Seventeen U.S. intelligence agencies strongly disagree with you. Those agencies have top line professionals with a broad base of knowledge & experience in their specialty area to back them up--& their conclusions. They are saying the Russians had a significant impact on the 2016 election, helping Trump with disinformation against Hillary. Those same agencies are telling us the Russians are already active in the 2020 election doing the same thing. These are professionals who make a living identifying threats to American security. I trust them. Trump has proven repeatedly, time after time, that he cares little about truth, & is willing to do anything--legal or illegal--to win.
5. I also respect Warren for her stand against the top 1% having so much power at the expense of everyone else.
6. Russiagate was never nonsense, but a real threat to America. It still is.
7. You are siding with Russia against a woman who has spent decades of her life working to improve the plight of middle class Americans?

 

How do you "hack" an election?

 

Much of what people experience in the world depends on the programming of their own minds. Consider that like a set of measuring tools- tape measure, scale, etc- that we use to see and measure the value and meaning of the events of life.
Unfortunately, we all seem to have different calibrations in these tools- like yardsticks that are different lengths, but all say 3 feet. That explains why we have a lot of the judgment conflicts, but not necessarily who is using the defective tools. We also have the ideological and the practical or realist points of view. While the ideological sounds attractive, it has to function in the real world environment- and that has to be a voluntary situation. I fully endorse the idea of people working in partnerships. When they do- in order for me to win, my partners must win too, like a ball team. Even so, we are all in adversary relationships at the same time. Some are voluntary, like a baseball game- where in order for my team to win, your team must lose. Even so, that is voluntary. When people are forced into adversarial relationships, the situation becomes dangerous; wars start that way. Americans should all see themselves as partners- working against the adversaries that harm us all, and always being very careful about trying to impose our will on others. That is ideological, in that there are always people willing to impose their forms of justice or fair upon others, and tell themselves "it's for their own good".
You can see that today in the plans of the socialist candidates. Leaders can never please everyone, and shouldn't try. But they should work for the best interests of the people, and see the big picture as a partnership with the people they govern. While leadership also mean power, it should be wisely used power, always toward that same goal.

I see Trump doing that quite well. While there are many people who hate him- almost all those people fail to see beyond the personal issues and look at the performance results. Of course, no leader will ever be perfect, or beyond criticism- fair or not. But personal dislike should not override our judgment of performance, yet right now that is rampant. The real culprit is the news media. On one hand, genuine impartial journalism is dead, and we have replaced them with the equivalent of arsonists trying destroy people. Few people have direct knowledge of what our government is really like or our president is really doing- they draw what they believe from that media, and thus few have a very good grasp of the truth. They think they do of course. We the people are sometimes- gullible.

I'm an old guy. I've already been where most people are going, but in this new world, experience is being laughed at rather than being used to prepare or understand what the future holds. Thus, we have some very crazy things going on, and some very great dangers posed by them. The media has forgotten it's duty to truth and fairness, and the people need to be very skeptical of them.

Competition... builds strength and character. It makes men out of boys.... adults out of children. It involves losing too, but it's really about learning and growing. It's about proving yourself to yourself, so you are not dependent on the approval of others to be secure. That is vital experience to prepare you for life. A person with spirit gets knocked down, they get up and try again; and they are wiser from the experience- and stronger. A person who lacks it blames the world for their plight, may not get up, or at least not learn and get stronger. All that depends on those tools in our minds. On our spirit, our personal strength, and that can only come from the inside. Everyone has the ability- it's like getting your butt in the drivers seat of your own life and taking charge and responsibility- but many will never do that. Trump is a demonstration of strength, a person takes the negatives and bounces back even stronger. That should give you proof it can be done, that each of us can be winners.... and we need more of them. The world and life will always bring events that knock us down. But the only time you become a loser is when you fail to get back up, and you fail to learn from the experience. Obviously you don't see it, but Trump is inspiring a lot of people to believe in themselves and their country- again. History will see it, because hindsight is invariably more accurate than the moment.

Governor Henry McMasters of South Carolina made a statement a few days ago regarding the connection between Trump and his supporters- "I've never seen anything like it". Similar statements have come from a lot of people with wide political experience; they are seeing a connection unlike anything ever before. The fact that one can do it is proof that others can too. We need to see strength to motivate us to become strong, to be all we can be. That is Trump's greatest contribution. He's helping make winners, not losers.

A truly strong person thinks for themselves. They criticize and question themselves, tune their minds and pursue truth- and they accept the responsibility for everything they say, do think or feel. They hold themselves accountable to their own values, and they will be values they can respect.
They want others to be strong too. I know how anyone can, and I've taught the process. But it only works for those willing to live it, and that is a personal choice one must make for themselves. We need more strong people, and we need them now.

 

I will vote for him but I don’t understand his rockstar status and how he mesmerizes people.
He just seems like a bitter out of touch whiny Jew jealous of the billionaires. I will vote for him over Trump though

 

You are saying that people are "programmed" to be blind and dumb. Yes, that happened for a long time under Communism in Russia. And it is still happening in China.

But, I also see vestiges of it in the Rabid Right in the US, which is fascinated by the accumulation of Wealth. It is a tiny segment of the population, but they garner the most of Net After-tax Income - and they support politically presidents on-the-Right who believe that low-taxation that builds Wealth is far more important than High-taxation and spending on Social Ideals (like national healthcare and free tertiary education).

Most politics today comes down to those two opposites. And, frankly, I just fine paying high-taxes and getting free family-healthcare and my kids at university at $1K-a-year tuition.

(De gustibus non disputandum est ... ;^)

 

People tend to pull to the center after getting the nomination to get wider appeal. And if his VP is a moderate, that would lend credence to that. I think he could win, but it's not going to be a landslide on either side unless the economy tanks (Trump loses) or Sanders fails to appear more moderate than we currently think he is. Turn-out will matter a lot and while Sanders may lose some moderates, his turnout would likely be a lot better amongst liberals than other candidates would muster.

Sanders is way left of most democratic candidates, but by worldwide standards he's not a true socialist.

He's the closest candidate to my positions, though I think some of his ideas are dumb/unrealistic. But presidents are not dictators so I'm not too worried about him bankrupting us. The main power the president can use to bankrupt us is starting wars.

 

First, let me tell you I found your post really interesting, clearly stated, thoughtful, concise, logical, rational, impressive & fun to read & think about. Thank you. As before, I found myself in total agreement with many of the points you made, while continuing to disagree with you in places as well. But I honestly enjoyed the whole post.

You covered a lot of territory, & it will take a lot of thought & time to respond in the positive & honest way I want to. So, I won't attempt to deal with it all together. Instead, I'll select sections to respond to in separate posts. I do this during quiet episodes at work, never knowing how much time will be available to me. But you raised some important topics worthy of discussion, & I look forward to continuing this dialogue.

 

I didn't say blind and dumb, YOU did. They are programmed with garbage beliefs in many cases, because the sources of their programming can do no better, and keep insisting that they are right even though what they believe doesn't work. When you are programmed with defective values because the person who gave them to you had defective values, you aren't stupid- but you are still wrong. Wrong can be fixed- IF the person is willing to change their beliefs. Most will refuse, and thus remain victims of themselves.

Rational people value what works- what makes things run, makes things happen, makes things improve. People who do that will acquire wealth- and people who don't will still be living better because of those who do. If you have a team of great people, it's a winning team. If you have a team of slackers, it's a losing team. When you start saying the great producers should carry all the slackers.... You are either a slacker or a fool, because that's a fatal formula. Winners work hard and smart- losers don't.

You seem to be angry that others have been able to have great success. Instead of assaulting them and demanding they pay your way- you should be asking them if they will tell you how they did it, so you can be successful too. I have asked a lot of such people, and they are very generous in sharing their secrets, from which I have benefited greatly. They will tell you- Provided of course that you don't insult them before you ask. They won't waste their time on people who have no potential or respect.

People are not poor because someone else is rich. They are poor because they failed to make sound choices, and that is totally their own fault.

 

In this post you sound like you adhere to the standard old conservative view than anyone who isn't rich is that way because they are either lazy, stupid or both. As a liberal, I can find many alternative explanations that are more deserving, more accurate & more humane.

 

I agree with the majority of your post but I think we disagree on Trump.

I don't care about Stormy - Think Russiagate was a witch hunt (and have the best arguments in support of this claim) - Don't care about Red or Blue - and am generally Anti Establishment.

I don't see Trump as delivering on what he claims to deliver. Trump is playing a role - and is a good front man. He is skilled in reading people - that is his strength - he can sense the mood of the crowd - is also intelligent - and has studied these things.

When it comes to making moves on the geopolitical chessboard - that is a different skill set - but it is also an area in which Trump is not making decisions on his own - although sometimes it may seem like it - breaking the Iran Deal for example ... 19 of 22 of his inner cabinet were against either the deal or the after the fact sanctions.

Both moves were dumb IMO - but using the nuclear option to force all the nations of the world to go along with Trumps Unilateral Sanctions was a move I am pretty sure they wish they could take back. (Nuke option is threatening to block banks and corps out of the international system of payments).

Trump has done squat for civil liberties - at a time when you think he would be realizing the need for such things.

Trump is a fiscal wreck - makes Obama look like a Fiscal Conservative. Who is going to pay for this credit card binge ? - how is this in the best interest of the people who will have to pick up the tab.

We got a nitro spike up to 3.5% GDP (not the 5-6% promised) for a year or so and then went right back down to 2%. Any idiot can increase economic activity with massive credit card spending .. aka "Socialism on Steroids" - It is the collective pot that is paying for this credit card binge.

What is the point of getting us out of wars - if we increase military spending by hundreds of billions of dollars. The Total Military and Military Related spend was over 1 Trillion under Obama - Has to be over 1.2 given Trumps increase.

The Total Healthcare spend for 2017 was 3.5 Trillion - I'm quite sure it is higher today - Could Trump not find us some better deals ? Where are with those drug price fixing issues Trump promised (as many others have done) he would address.

I get that Lipstick on a Pig Obamacare did squat to address the systemic issues within our system of Healthcare Extortion - but Trump has maintained the Status Quo as well.

Status Quo Don would be a good moniker for Donald - but he talks a good game - I will give him that.

It realize that it would be tougher to get things done given the Russiagate Witch hunt - and this was truly disturbing from a propaganda and dirty deeds within Gov't perspective - Where is the investigation into the CIA ghouls that set up Papadopolous .. and for lying to a FISA court - which is worse than lying to congress - by far .. False witness against thy neighbor is different than merely lying to cover your ass. One is far worse than the other.

But if Trump was Truly a man of the people he would have done things for the people .. saving them a few shillings on tax cuts for a short period time - to pad the pockets of the rich - was not helpful .. as Trump was just deferring payment of those shillings from this year into next

The problem is that we are on the hook for double the amount we saved this year - in what we have to pay in future years.

 

Just because the Cuban Communist Newspaper is praising Bernie Sanders is no reason for fellow Democrat candidates to be concerned

 

There are of course, many reasons. When you speak to individual cases, that is always a consideration. When you speak to the entire bracket of people in that position, you will find that the reasons for poverty are usually things in the control of the person, not unavoidable acts of fate or nature.

You may have heard of a custom that has always existed in the rural or farm world, of people helping their neighbors in need. I have an old friend, an elderly lady of 86, living alone on a farm; I built her home about 20 years ago. Her land was rented to a really fine man named Rod, on a shared profit basis, as a lot of land is. Last spring Rod, at 61 years old and with no previous health issues- was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. That required a lot of care and hospital time, which meant he couldn't take care of the 2000 acres of wheat he farmed, and the crop would soon be ready. Nobody had to ask for help- his friends, other farmers, even people he didn't know just showed up and took care of his work to get the crop harvested. Equipment, fuel and truck and people. Nobody wanted payment. Now they did this because they knew that he would do the same for them if circumstances were reversed, and they knew that if he recovered, he would be grateful. This is what we call a "hand-up", helping out our fellow man in need. I've done similar things many, many times. When you do this, those you help people gain faith in their fellow man, know that people are good and considerate- and they feel a desire to pay it forward and help others. Everybody wins, and society gets stronger. Giving a person a hand-up is a good thing- and we are a generous people who enjoy doing it.

However there are a great many people who seek help that is needed because they won't take care of themselves. I don't mean they don't work at all, but when a person won't manage their money, when they are unable to keep a job because hey are unreliable or their attitude is poor, it's a different situation. Helping such a person is not a hand-up; it's a hand-out. It's a subsidy that enables them to continue to refuse to stand on their own, to take control and responsibility for their lives- and it insures they will expect the same thing from you tomorrow. They will depend on it, and they will resent you for the feeling that comes from that. While not helping them will be called cruel by some- I think helping them is cruel, because it helps them keep the belief that somebody else owes them. There is no gratitude, no feeling that they should pay it forward and help others. This all happens because of the mindset, or how they see things. When you "help" that person, they see a late payment on an overdue bill, and you agreeing that you are the one who owes it. You both lose, and society gets weaker. It's not a rewarding thing to do. I am speaking from a substantial degree of experience here, as I was once part of a coalition that built 100 new brick homes in 180 days- to help low income people, with subsidized housing. Given the experience with the people who became tenants and the abuse that prevailed, I'm kind of surprised I still believe in helping anybody, but I do. I'm just a lot more careful, so that my help doesn't feed an addiction to dependence for people. In the last 12 months, I've contributed about $20K in help to people I know who genuinely deserved it. Before I built adequate wealth, I gave such people my time and work. At my age now and financial condition, I can pay for help. However, I will always be careful how I do it.

Dependent people are never happy people inside. It's a miserable place to be, but until that person is willing to reject dependence, that is where they will stay. I do not want to be responsible for keeping them there. They won't change until they run out of options; when nobody will enable them.

Government is neither wise enough to know the difference in these situations, nor courageous enough to draw the line between them. This is why government becoming the provider of basic needs is a bad policy. This is why socialism and idealism invariably are self destructive; they promote the dependence when what we really need to promote is the independence, the self-confidence and community spirit that allows people to respect themselves, feel they belong, and appreciate each other. I think you can understand the value of that.

 

Jewish communism is worse than Jewish style capitalism???

 

Bernie is not getting the popular vote!