Is the West forcing its belief system on Islam?

yes, Islam is quite irrational. I'm glad we finally agree.

 

Notice the word "latter."

 

so the only way to get rid of ISIS, is for a world-wide Caliphate to be created?

LOL!!!!!! with Iran in charge, right?

maybe Hezbollah?

 

I never said it had to mimic the Caliphates of the past. That's where ISIS has it wrong. They think they have to literally act like it's 1000ad to bring Islam back to its glory days.

 

i dont care what they do, as long as they respect basic human rights.

yes, its time for the Muslim world to start to respect basic human rights. They can no longer use islam as an excuse to abuse women, religious minorities, and Gays.

 

That's like a Muslim arguing that he doesn't care what the the West does, as long as it respects God's will.

 

Yes it is, except GOD has nothing to do with basic human rights and freedoms. In fact, your god seems to revel in restricting those rights.

The prophet urged jihad (not the war definition) in order to constantly improve and evolve the religion, because he was smart enough to realize that tomorrow is not the same as yesterday. Unfortunately, his followers seem to have lost the plot a bit, while those in charge used it to entrench social and economic control.

A book or two on the application of religion from an anthropological perspective, might give you some insights. But then again, those aren't holy scriptures and full of dogma, they are secular academic analysis, so maybe not.

 

Yes, the Prophet did indeed prescribe the need to continuously renovate Islam- not reform it, but renovate it. As I argued before, this is something groups like ISIS don't get.

As to your first paragraph, God is the absolute legislator of laws and human conduct. Anything else is mere human submission to desires and whims, and that includes the Western concept of freedom and human rights.

 

Muslims began their religion with world wide war of conquest. They are a religion of violence, and should forced out.

 

which interpretation of God?

 

Except that the first Muslim war waged against their pagan oppressors took place 13 years after the first revelation.

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The one a society chooses to base its laws on.

 

Pagan oppressors? What a joke. Yeah it took the warlord Muhammed a little time to gather enough power to start his global war.

 

The Prophet preached to his closest family members the first several years. And the fact that you are ignorant of the pagan persecution of the Muslims is not my problem.

 

Yeah the warlord was a mad man who only his family tolerated, but he got lucky managed to convince some yocals to follow him, and prosecuted the Pagans including killing, raping, beheading, etc etc. At best he was Ghengis Khan mixed with Scientology.

 

most people on Earth, the vast majority, say islam is wrong

 

Uh-huh.

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So what?

 

if islam was really the truth, the whole world would know it.

but most of the world rejects islam and always will

 

Although I agree that Christianity is destined to fail, I don't think it will be because it is "irrational." We are discussing faiths here, not scientific disciplines. I think the problem with Christianity is the teachings themselves. Particularly it's teachings of forgiveness and passivity, all through the examples in the life of Jesus. There was a news clip after the Paris attacks of a husband of one of the victims, in which his message to ISIS was that they failed because he didn't hate them. In a weird way he actually thought he was striking a blow against them by not hating them. Although I don't want to judge a man too harshly who is grieving over his murdered wife, I felt a little bit of contempt at that attitude.

Also the way the Europeans have taken in their new Syrian colonists is a good example. Even though Christianity as a religion is mostly dead in Europe, it's left a cultural and moral skeleton that has tales of the Good Samaritan pushing the moral buttons of the Europeans. It's pathological altruism. When the Europeans offer their last coat to the colonists, they'll then freeze to death. Since Christianity is on the defense worldwide, I expect the religion to slowly shrink in numbers and importance over the next few centuries.

As far as the West fearing a Caliphate, you may be right that we should fear it, but I suspect the Muslims forced to live under it will probably fear it just as much.

 

That's just silly..

 

Heh, yes I'm sure they'll get right on that!

 

Renovation is reform, unless its tearing it down to put up a replica.

According to your perspective, God legislated both laws and human conduct 1500 years ago. Apparently it was comfortable with 7th century freedoms and rights while the concepts of democracy and freedom of speech, etc., are merely submission to desires and whims. Desires and whims that God created in the first place as integral to human conduct.

Sadly, you cannot see the contradictory nature of your argument.

 

And therein lies, I think, the essence of the West's projection on Islam. The West generally thinks that Islam went through the same history Christianity did. Reason and faith must go hand in hand, otherwise you're going to get poor results. That wasn't the case with Christianity, where people for persecuted for scientific discoveries in Europe. People were disallowed from questioning Christianity, and since pure faith ultimately fails, the West alternated to pure reason. Sure, God may have still been on their minds, but He was pushed to the background.

But that never was the case with Islam. So, for Westerners to prescribe the same solutions for Islam is just plain wrong. Islam didn't fail- it turned a bunch of nobody Arabian tribes to the military and intellectual rulers of the world in a span of a few centuries.

As to why Christianity is inherently irrational, perhaps that's best left for another discussion.

Indeed, and that's why I still refer to Europeans and their ancestors as Christians, even if they claim not to be. They are symptoms of Christianity, and they are- as Islam says- a lost people.

I don't mean a Caliphate like the Abbasids or Ottomans. I mean a "Caliphate" that takes into considerations of the modern world. So far all we have gotten are groups thinking that they need to live as if its 600AD to return Islam to its glory days.

 

Reform means making changes. Islam does not need to be changed.

Of course He created them! Where is the free will to not believe in Him if you didn't have the ability to submit to anything but Him?

 

how islam is practised and taught needs to be changed.

it needs to come out of the Dark Ages, and be more tolerant of different points of view, different peoples, women, Gays, etc.

sure, islam was created in the 7th century so its full of 7th century crap.

but its the 21st century and islam must evolve or be relegated to knuckle-dragging poverty-stricken extremists and thugs

 

Then what is the purpose of jihad? if change is not necessary there is no need to renovate.

As to Islam not needing to be changed, why is it that your religion has no need of change? Seems to me that since its supposed "revelation" just about everything on the planet has changed. UNIMAGINED by Islam and mohammed, like changes in forms of government, technology, economics, knowledge, communications, social mores, etc. etc. etc.

And yet for some reason you seem to feel that the attitudes and perspectives and judgments of the 7th century should remain intact and applicable 1400 years later.
Perhaps that is an underlying reason for the lack of innovation, invention, discovery and advancement. If it wasn't for the oil to generate riches, most of the muslim world would be firmly planted in the 3rd world.

So, its free will, whims and desires that advances civilization, not adherence to any particular god's edicts. I agree.