Islam v The United States: How To Diffuse a Political Time-Bomb

I was contradicting your assertions that there was "nothing against any western country before that" and your claim that the attacks by the Muslims in the Barbary wars were "hardly religious or political in their nature".
And there is a long history of Islamic conquests of Europe that began within 80 years of muhammads death with Muslims waging jihad in Spain.

 

Just trying to make clear WHY we have to continue to FIGHT the expansion of Radical Islam.

Surrender is NOT an option.


Nor is meekly accepting becoming Dhimmī status for non-Muslim Americans, and allowing the gradual conversion of American Law and Culture into Sharia Compliance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

Obama and Company seem dead set on making this happen, therefore, I oppose them in every possible way.

Tell me, since you seem to see an equivalency between Christianity's problems, and that of Radical Islam, what WORD does Christianity assign to those of lowered political and legal status, within the countries that they control?

What is the Christian Equivalent to the world Dhimmi?

Protectionist is correct when he states that the most common form of Islam is NOT a Religion, but something much bigger, and more suffocating than just another peacefully co-existing Religion of One among many in a Western Democracy.

Radical Islam, which is currently the most COMMON form of Islam, is fundamentally incompatible with the freedoms of our society.

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pass more laws to enforce separation of religion from government now, that solves the issue

remove the Muslim God from our Money, the pledge, ect...

.

 

Silence eh?

OK, now we're getting somewhere...

80 years after Muhammad's death and THEN jihad began.? This is most suspect. With life expectancy back then, that's about 3 generations time. Why didn't jihad start immediately after Muhammad's death? After all, this was a mandate from Muhammad himself, no? Then why did it take 3 generations to finally "catch on to Muhammad's message to conquer people?"

It's because that wasn't his message. It was made up. Pulled out of thin air. The tiny cloister of powerful people and of them even a scant few who could read or write, took it upon themselves to "legitimize" their interests in Spain; to get the people/peons/soldiers to do their dirty business for them.

Little has changed. Jihad is all about oil at its heart. But few jihadists realize this. And oil is about money, ultimately [bananas & females] Just as oil was behind the Iraq invasion from the US. But dumb kids wet behind the ears lined up to "fight for freedom, God and country".

Once the silverback sounds the bugle, the underlings forget very easily what the rukkus is all about. All it takes is a few jingles from a holy book and the promise of a "sacred cause" and off they go to raid the neighboring troop for bananas and females; while the silverback sits back and smiles through his rotting teeth, all fat and priveleged.

This is a theme that has repeated itself from the dawn of mankind and eons before that even. Say, weren't the first set of squabblings and redactions for the christian Bible starting about 80-100 years after Christ's death? Weird coincidence.

 

Uh, didn’t they have Palestine to conquer (while there was absolutely nobody alive who rejected his invitations to stay Islamic) before the followers of the good example went to Spain? And really you should consider where the magic donkey ride went to.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 191:

..."In the name of Allah, the most Beneficent, the most Merciful (This letter is) from Muhammad, the slave of Allah, and His Apostle, to Heraculius, the Ruler of the Byzantine. Peace be upon the followers of guidance. Now then, I invite you to Islam (i.e. surrender to Allah), embrace Islam and you will be safe; embrace Islam and Allah will bestow on you a double reward. But if you reject this invitation of Islam, you shall be responsible for misguiding the peasants (i.e. your nation). O people of the Scriptures! Come to a word common to you and us and you, that we worship. None but Allah, and that we associate nothing in worship with Him; and that none of us shall take others as Lords besides Allah. Then if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are (they who have surrendered (unto Him)..(3.64)"...

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 191:

Narrated Abdullah bin Abbas:
"He said, 'Do the noble or the poor follow him?' I replied, 'It is the poor who follow him.' He said, 'Are they increasing or decreasing (day by day)?' I replied,' They are increasing.' He said, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his (the Prophet's) Religion become displeased and then discard his Religion?'. I replied, 'No. ' He said, 'Does he break his promises? I replied, 'No, but we are now at truce with him and we are afraid that he may betray us." Abu Sufyan added, "Other than the last sentence, I could not say anything against him. Caesar then asked, 'Have you ever had a war with him?' I replied, 'Yes.' He said, 'What was the outcome of your battles with him?' I replied, 'The result was unstable; sometimes he was victorious and sometimes we.' He said, 'What does he order you to do?' I said, 'He tells us to worship Allah alone, and not to worship others along with Him, and to leave all that our fore-fathers used to worship. He orders us to pray, give in charity, be chaste, keep promises and return what is entrusted to us.'"

"The return of Heraclius from Tauris to Constantinople was a perpetual triumph..." (p, 1550, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon) {all quotes are straight out of my copy so there may be typos}

"The succeeding year was illustrated by the triumph of a very different kind, the restitution of the true cross to the holy sepulchre. Heraclius performed in person the pilgrimage of Jerusalem...Before the emperor presumed to thread the consecrated ground, he was instructed to strip himself of the diadem and the purple, the pomp and vanity of the world; but in the judgment of his clergy the persecution of the Jews was more easily reconciled with the precepts of the gospel." (P, 1551, ibid)

"When Heraclius returned in triumph from the Persian war, he entertained, at Emesa, one of the ambassadors of Mahomet, who invited the princes and nations of the earth to the profession of Islam. On this foundation the zeal of the Arabians has supposed the secret conversion of the Christian emperor;..." (p, 1760, ibid)

 

Sounds like something a spiritual medium [some call them prophets, saints or messiahs] would channel... Not bad advice really.

Sounds like his clergy decided to persecute the Jews. That's the thing with clergy and politics. They're so good at twisting things to work the agenda of the day.

Tell me, how many years after Muhammed died was the Koran written? Five? Seventeen? Thirty? A hundred?

And how many other world prophets have there been since him? There are thousands upon thousands of seers and knowers in every generation. Why hand pick just a select few? [hint: it's easier to keep the flock in line and doing what you want them to when you get them to focus outward instead of expanding their minds each new cycle and intuiting the truth themselves from inner silence]

The powerful know that if you can get the herd to shut off their personal link to the Spirit [with a thousand different names since the dawn of time] and focus on just what one or three men have said as prophets, then there's little danger that your agenda can't be whipped up at the bugle call....because a bunch of your soldiers sat down and figured out, intuited what you were up to.....and said, "yeah......no. That's not cricket."

 

No, it is just not enough information in that quote for what caught your eye.

The Jews had taken the side of the Persians against Rome, and got persecuted for it and the clergy like with the time one of them killed a whole town was too scared to tell him he was a murdering scum bag, and Gibbon is being sarcastic about it. Then came the Mob Protection Racket of Islam and did the same thing to them claiming the Jews sided with others against Islam:

112a. Almost the same words, excluding the exception, occur in 2:61. The Jews
had already been subjected to the greatest humiliation and disgrace before the appearance of the Prophet. But with the advent of Islåm they could better their condition either by accepting the covenant of Allåh, by which is meant the acceptance of Islåm, or by making a compact of security with such men as could give them protection. This remains true to this day." http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/index.htm

Who knows how fracked up it is from what he thought he was revealing. Inspiration is a little less insane than seeing things. The problem is that if the Muslims could in a significant mass admit the Koran is maybe flawed--like I know the Bible is flawed (believe me, I would never believe a miracle I did not see, and Jesus in the spaghetti on the bill board is explainable)--then we could put our heads together and just be good from the bottom of our hearts, asking God for direct help, which could just be that little thing called a conscience, instead of reciting the edicts of Shaitanic toilet papers.

 

And what does any of this have to do with the actual spoken words of the prophet? When was the Koran written? By whom? And how many years after Muhammed died? There are politics and not divine revelations afoot, I guarantee it...

 

The exact same thing Islam did is what Rome just got though doing, solidifying their claim on the land. I would say we could lay it at the Jew’s feet (bad Jews don’t want to take communion or bow down with those who bow down) or lay it to politics. I go with politics.

I have no clue what the actual spoken words of the man were or even if he was a prophet; if that Koran is as all perfect as so many of them claim it is, all I know is he is a false prophet led by Shaitan, and I have no doubt about it whatsoever. As Jesus said blasphemy of prophets is forgivable, so let them learn it or else.

 

and a long history of Europeans waging religious wars in Arabic countries.

Either address the point or don't bother posting.
Such deflection just makes you look stupid and proves you have no real point to make.

POST1945 - if you can.

 

Wait a minute. You quoted the prophet Muhammed saying this:

That hardly looks like what the devil would influence anyone to say. What does that entity get out of such a statement? Harmony in human populations? How does it harvest the energy its after if people are all kumbaya, praying, giving in charity, being chaste and keeping promises?

What exact date was the Koran written and how many years after Muhammed died?

 

Because it had already started during muhammads life. They had to conquer the Arabian peninsula, the levant and northern Africa before they could get to europe

 

Of course, there were no divine revelations.

 

Don't be so sure about that. The catholic church, if memory serves, sainted Joan of Arc. She was reported to be divinely inspired to lead the French to war with England. She is a christian saint who led the faithful to fight in battles. Certain agendas are served by the channeling of prophets and they aren't always touchy feely ones. It's quite possible the arabs had some errand and then got carried away with it. And then turned a temporary mandate into a permanent state of mind.

That happens a lot in religion. Orthodox jews avoid pork. Not that they should. It's just that a long time ago for health reasons Yahweh's mouthpieces grafted the practice onto religion so that people wouldn't forget and get sick. It made sense then. Today it doesn't. We have for now ample fuel to cook pork thoroughly. Then in that place in the world, they didn't. The act of avoiding pork today is silly. Yet they take it quite seriously. They are religious about its avoidance...

 

That would be Catholic revelations, not divine.

 

No, it would be divine. That's the qualifier for catholics to declare someone a saint. Check your catholic handbook. They have to determine if a candidate for sainthood was divinely inspired.

You are saying Muhammed was a bad guy because during his life his people went to war with another troop. Did he lead those battles like Joan of Arc did?

 

Nope, still Catholic revelations, not divine.

 

The difference between "holy" and "..in heaven" and "divine" is what exactly? Saint Joan of Arc led soldiers into bloody battle to defeat the English. The catholic church considers what she stood for and did a divine mission. Quite apparently. That's what she did of significance; and what they sainted her for.

 

The order to pray was to be seen of men for judgment of their loyalty to the Islamic government:

What is Islam:

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 48:
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/...rces/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/002.sbt.html

"[4.142] Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah, and He shall requite their deceit to them, and when they stand up to prayer they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah save a little."
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kora...V0&byte=114839

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 191:

Narrated Abdullah bin Abbas:
"He said, 'Do the noble or the poor follow him?' I replied, 'It is the poor who follow him.' He said, 'Are they increasing or decreasing (day by day)?' I replied,' They are increasing.' He said, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his (the Prophet's) Religion become displeased and then discard his Religion?'. I replied, 'No. ' He said, 'Does he break his promises? I replied, 'No, but we are now at truce with him and we are afraid that he may betray us." Abu Sufyan added, "Other than the last sentence, I could not say anything against him. Caesar then asked, 'Have you ever had a war with him?' I replied, 'Yes.' He said, 'What was the outcome of your battles with him?' I replied, 'The result was unstable; sometimes he was victorious and sometimes we.' He said, 'What does he order you to do?' I said, 'He tells us to worship Allah alone, and not to worship others along with Him, and to leave all that our fore-fathers used to worship. He orders us to pray, give in charity, be chaste, keep promises and return what is entrusted to us.'"

“[2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.
[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.
[2.42] And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).
[2.43] And keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and bow down with those who bow down.”
“[2.83] And when We made a covenant with the children of Israel: You shall not serve any but Allah and (you shall do) good to (your) parents, and to the near of kin and to the orphans and the needy, and you shall speak to men good words and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate. Then you turned back except a few of you and (now too) you turn aside.”
“And when ye call to prayer they take it for a jest and sport. That is because they are a folk who understand not.” [5.58]

“(Mat 6:5) And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
(Mat 6:6) But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
(Mat 6:7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
(Mat 6: Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
(Mat 6:9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
(Mat 6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
(Mat 6:11) Give us this day our daily bread.
(Mat 6:12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
(Mat 6:13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.”

Any questions as to who was ordering who to bow down with those who bow down?

I have no idea of the “exact date was the Koran written and how many years after Muhammed died,” and a doubt any honest Muslim could answer the leading question either.

[video=youtube;WW1h4iKeMZ0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WW1h4iKeMZ0[/video]

 

Then there's no way to be sure if Muhammad himself or some politically motivated people created the religion of islam. Same can be said of the christian Bible. It was written I think about 80-100 years [4-5 generations] after Christ died. [and redacted a couple of times. See: the Council of Nicea] Lots and lots and lots of things can happen to "true accounts" in that time span. And without written language accessible to most, word of mouth was behind most of it. Were all the people reporting the events saintly, chaste and pure? Or were some of them fallible and open to influence?

I'm not taking sides on religions here. In case you didn't notice. All of them have had non-divine insertions into their dogma and great huge wars have been fought over mistaken notions...

 

Divine revelations would be those revealed by god, not the catholic church.

 

Determined by whom? You? The Southern Baptists? The Mormons? Heaven's Gate? Jim Jones?

 

I'm an atheist. None of it is divine revelations. Would seem that you've declared yourself to be the arbiter of what is and is not divine revelations.

 

I seek my divine revelations from the Holy Spirit, and by happenstance I have to listen to others, like you, and Carl Sagan, and Socrates, and Marcus Aurelius (drink no cold water)…well, you know, to make sure I am linked into the right one and not the author of the Satanic Verses.

 

We were discussing the catholic church's canonizing [sainting] Joan of Arc, who led her fellow Frenchmen into bloody battles on a holy-errand. Ergo a bloody-battle-holy-christian errand.