Liberty Frightens People

Now they're gonna try to win by appealing to the dictionary, not a comprehensive or honest use of it, of course, but to pretend that there is only one sense in which that word can be used and no other, including its literal meaning, is valid.

Once that word enters the discussion, nothing you do or say can stop them from equivocating back and forth as needed to keep from engaging you.

 

If you're not friends with somebody, are you going to take a dump on his front lawn? Probably not, but why not?

 

I'm not, but one who doesn't want to dirty his pants, may.
Or one who dislikes something you did to him, may.

I won't because I have my own bathroom to use.

Do you leave your house doors open when not home?
Do you leave the keys in your car, when you are not in it?
Why or why not?

 

I don't think liberty frightens people. What I think frightens people is the idea of not being able to do whatever may pop into their heads. Good or bad. Also, look at the military. Going into the military for an enlisted person is basically selling yourself into slavery. The lack of liberty you have in the military is far greater than you would experience in civilian life. Such as having the liberty to quit. Despite that, there are many enlisted people who decide to stay in the military until they retire.

 

Am I the only person here who has normal friends and usually normal neighbors? Jeez! Who decides the punishment in your neighborhood when the weird neighbor down the street decides to turn his front lawn into an open air septic tank? Ostracism works quite well for most people because we are social animals.

You really can't walk outside of your house and walk to the park without a police escort?

Do you live in the hood? Lotta drive-bys, I'm guessing. Maybe crack dealers out in front of your house and ladies of the evening using your lawn furniture to ply their trade? If so, you might want to consider moving. That's ostracism at work.

Well okay, there are all sorts of societies. If you are surrounded by people who require official rule enforcers because of a lack of general normal mayberrian standards of decency, my sympathies.

 

Hmm, lots of laws are ignored even by our elected officials. Sanctuary cities are ignoring federal immigration laws. Several states have ignored federal drug laws and made recreational marijuana legal in their states. Obama ignored quite a lot of laws passed by congress and signed into law by previous presidents by not enforcing them. Trump has given an order for the IRS not to enforce the mandatory fees with Obamacare by not assessing and collecting them which by law they should be collected and assessed. So our highest ranking elected officials obey/ignore the laws they don't like and enforce the ones they do.

For the longest time Georgia had their Sunday blue laws on the books, almost everyone choose to ignore them and most were never enforced. Ignoring laws is nothing new from the individual who wanted to drink a beer on Sunday to presidents, states, cities ignoring duly passed federal laws.

 

I don't mind dictionary types. With a word like anarchy, the basic definition is 'no ruler'. A monarchy is a single ruler, an oligarchy is a few rulers, etc. etc.

I used to believe the "anarchy is a fabled utopia that can't exist!" types until I realized that the one cop that patrols my community has absolutely nothing to do. He drives around and waves at people he knows, he gets his hair cut at the local barber shop like the rest of us, The hardest job he has by a mile is when school lets out and he finds himself surrounded by a bunch of sixth graders who want to see what kind of gun he carries.

As you can see, the argument against typically involves dredging up a dystopian Mad Max universe and then saying "see? you need a ruler or else this is what will happen!!!!"

Offer your sympathies that they live in such a place and ask why they don't move.

 

Then you should go to the city council and tell them to stop wasting your tax $$$ on that police officer that has nothing to do.
Then have the council disband themselves, they clearly have no need in your world either.

 

I notice the use of the word 'most' in your utopian town. What is ostracism doesn't work at all?

 

What if ostracism doesn't work?

if you're trying to point at small imperfections like the lady down the street from me who doesn't talk to anybody, and the clucking hens think she's involved in some kind of cult (local gossip), then it is working perfectly. She doesn't bother us and we don't bother her.

 

I was actually referring to the neighbor with an open septic in his front lawn.

 

You really don't know? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but basic socialization skills aren't supposed to be complete mysteries. You bring a beer over with a few neighbors and explain that the smell on a humid summer day isn't enhanced by his open air toilet. If a friendly chat doesn't help, you have a chat with his wife. Maybe she can get him to stop. If that doesn't help, you ramp it up to the point that a trip down to the pub becomes an uncomfortable time.

If things really get bad, he'll eventually have to change because even his employer will start to suffer.

 

His employer will start to suffer?
If he's unemployed?

 

See, now you're just looking for anything that might require a call to the cops, aren't you? Then the cops come, they slap a fine on him, or maybe even some cuffs. He has to pay some money or spend some time in the slammer, and then he comes back a changed man.

If you want perfection, there's a plot of land in the middle of the desert with your name on it. If you want to live with people, it's not going to be perfect. Your solution is to resort to violence as soon as a guy makes a social faux pas.

Does the violence that the state brings to the table help? Does it result in the perfection you seek? If not, then maybe the world isn't perfect, but we are social animals at the end of the day, and ostracism is usually a much better alternative than the villagers eventually deciding to evict Doc Frankenstein from his castle. If you really want to see violence, we humans don't need the state to resort to violence. Shotguns have been brought to weddings before, but sometimes a couple cold beers and a few not-so-subtle hints that being a man requires taking responsibility for your actions will do the job just as well.

 

Then you believe the above quote of yours doesn't exist. There must be a law and an enforcement mechanism. For there is no utopia.

 

lol! Well you have fun with your utopia, and I'll have fun in mine. Just stay on your side of the fence because your kind isn't welcome on my side.

 

I didn't claim the world can be a utopia. You did. But I don't think you believe it. For you will call the cops, but in the libertarian utopia, cops aren't needed.

 

You were doing fine until that last paragraph. Allow me to help you out a bit.

We each have the "opportunity" to pick and choose which laws we obey. In doing so we assume the "responsibility of being held accountable to the consequences of our choices.

We have to have rules. There would be no society if we didn't have them. Yes sometimes those rules will infringe on our own personal view of what liberties we should have but in order to have community they are necessary. You are still free to violate the rules just do so with the understanding that you may be held to account.

I do agree that liberty does frighten many folks. Most are fine with it in smaller doses. Just look around today and observe. You can take almost anything away and people wont complain as long as they have their smart phone. Take that phone away and OH MY GOD the world has come to an end.

 

I've called the cops twice in my lifetime. They come, you file a report, and then they leave.

I'm still waiting for them to find my TV...

 

So we should obey the law regardless of what it says?

 

OK, so cops and a law are needed. I think that has been my point and the point of many posting in this thread.

 

How you got from the cops being completely useless when I did call them, to cops and law are needed is a mystery for the ages.

 

I didn't say that did i? What i did say is understand there are consequences and be prepared to be held accountable.
Laws can be and are changed all the time. You don't like it, work to change it.

 

Oh, so you agree that "We each have a personal responsibility to pick and choose which laws we obey".

 

"Pick and choose which laws to follow"? Tell it to the judge!