Look for the Union Label

I worked in a union for 5 years in the 80's and now I get paid based on how much I contribute to the bottom line and I like it 100% better. I feel like a bigger part of the team and our respect for each other is tremendous. We look forward to quarterly meetings and look out for each other, there is no us and them.

 

In the history of Union vs Management conflicts it was generally management that hired thugs and murderers like the Pinkertons to break strikes and prevent the workers from collectively bargaining for their fair share of the wealth that they were largely responsible for creating.

 

I have been a union man my whole working life. They did a good job of getting my wages and benefits. But we can't look at unions today as we once did. Things have completely changed with our economy. NAFTA and Free Trade caused that. Wages and benefits went up so high that American labor could no longer compete. We lost millions of jobs and those factories that stayed are competing with foreign companies that are making the same product cheaper. Trying to push higher wages at a time like this only puts American firms here at a bigger disadvantage. One only has to look at Detroit and Michigan to see that. There was a time GM held about 65% of the auto sales in America. I think it's less than 25% percent now.

I know many of these low wage jobs have hurt, but it could wind up being a blessing. Apple has just brought back from China two factories. GE has brought back all their major appliances. Whirlpool has brought back their hand mixers. A hand full of other manufactures has also came back. They came back because wages in China is going up fairly fast. Also transportation prices have gone up with the price of oil and the increase in cost of rail container cars. Along with the slow increase of wages and benefits here, we are beginning to become competitive again. If we had forced unions on these companies and driven up wages here, chances are good these companies would have not come back. By holding down wages and benefits here and having wages and transportation cost rise over there, the playing field is starting to level off. The last thing we need to do now is force unions on companies and tip the level back more in their favor. We can raise them after we get them back. People need to realize we are going through a transition right now. Give it a chance to work.

Instead of looking for a union label, look for made in America first. If you have no company, the union does little good.

 

You are doing fine until you use the phrase "artificially increase wages." What is artificial about it? If all workers were represented by one union, you could make the case that entity had enough market power to artificially increase something. However one union can't artificially increase anything. Supply and demand curves are reductive. Not to say they aren't useful, they are simply reductive. The reality is that there is not one point on a curve, there is a spectrum of points on a curve. Employers want to pay their workers as little as they can (this is also reductive, and not always true, but true enough to move forward with). That absolutely DOES NOT mean that is all the market will bear. However individual workers do not have equal bargaining power with their employer. All labor unions do is increase the bargaining power of workers, so they can go higher up the spectrum of what the market will bear. Nothing artificial about that at all.

PS. Unions are great. They are ruined by the same entity that most ruins businesses, and that is government. When a union and an employer negotiate a deal, that is great. The problem is when the government intervenes to benefit one of the sides (that you could call artificial). Historically government tends to usually side with capital, but that isn't always the case, and whatever the outcome, that leads to distortions.

 

Yes to do the work. While the leeches get rich off the backs of their labor!! This exemplifies EXACTLY how the right thinks. Capitalists deserve money for doing nothing because they are "taking risks," while workers are greedy pigs for wanting to be well paid for actually doing work that makes capitalists money. Amazing really that this has any traction with anyone but a small elite, but capitalists own the entire media system, so people have been taught to think this way for years. Most people aren't capable of seeing through the propaganda and just accept that propaganda unthinkingly!! People working against their own interests. However propaganda is very powerful....

 

Don't you believe that people should have rights in the workplace?

Nobody forces unions on companies; companies bring it upon themselves because of greed, unfair practices and and a lack of job security for their employees plain and simple. Your position that unions can no longer be looked at in the same eye (since you benefited from them during your working career and now no longer think they are needed) is hypocritical at best.

 

Try to post something of at least marginal intelligence please.

 

Nonsense!! There is something called general strikes. People with similar interests protect the interests of their fellow workers. It happens in most other countries on the planet. The only places it doesn't happen is in places where the corporate media sends endless waves of propaganda at people on a daily basis, and people internalize that propaganda. Go look up the history of the great labor clashes in America. Go look at the Pullman Car strike. It wasn't a big deal because of only those workers, it was a big deal because their was a strike of rail workers across the country. Then the US government invaded the state of Illinois to crush that strike, but that is what usually happened when the capitalist thugs from the Pinkertons (and other similar organizations) failed to beat strikes into submission. They got government to do it for them. Only in the 1930s do we see that stop, and then the rise of prosperity for the American worker. That correlation is certainly no coincidence. Yet despite rising wages and increased union membership, American capitalism soared. Workers made more and capitalists less, that is true, but when consumers have more money to spend on products that benefits capitalists as well. They just tend to be too arrogant and short-sighted to understand that reality.

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No you aren't.

 

Yes there will always be people with no self respect willing to demean themselves for some of masters droppings. Their number has increased dramatically since the take over of the media by a small number of corporations over the last 40 years.

 

Insomnia is a (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)...and here I am on vacation. Oh well. Who said you're pro-union? I'm intimating what I flat out said before, "your analysis is over-simplistic, incomplete, selective and incorrect. Why by operation of the law of S&D unions 'artificially alter markets'.

Since you are an economist by trade, and, in your opinion, labor unions 'artificially alter markets' (whatever that means), why do you support unions? Your point is either marginal next to invisible or contrary to the optimal performance of markets thus antithetical to your economist sensibilities, i.e., you're getting all emotional in your support for unions. If free market, capitalistic bargaining for services rendered is 'artificially altering markets', then you might have a point. But do you see how I phrased that and how it illustrates the absurdity of your statement?

But keep repeating yourself and maybe, just maybe you'll convince yourself.

 

I said unions can't be look at the same because the economy isn't the same. Free Trade and NAFTA changed all of that. What good did unions do those millions of people who lost their job after their company fled to Mexico and China? As I said before, we are going through a transition period right now. We are going through it because wages and benefits have been held down. Now we have some of the big companies coming back, do we bring it all to a screeching halt by being in a hurry to shove unions on them and screw up this advantage we are beginning to have? This might take a few more years, but won't it be worth it if we can bring thousands of jobs back?

 

The failure of management to lead the company in the right direction is irrelevant. German auto manufacturers are seen as the best in the world. Read this from Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederi...-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

It is almost as if unions work very well, when properly run. EXACTLY the same as corporations do!!!!!!!!!! Mercedes is well run across the board, so their union employees make a lot of money and yet they still make significant profits. That is what we should aim for, but instead corporate media propaganda has been internalized by so many people, that they care nothing about workers and only about capital. It is insanely stupid and ridiculous, but that is the reality in this country.

 

It wasn't the fault of the unions, it was the fault of the government for allowing NAFTA, GATT and Free Trade to come into the picture. Even if unions had agreed to massive concessions, there is no way they could compete with companies such as Nike who moved to Mexico and paid their workforce $1.25 an hour to manufacture sneakers.

Again, we are not going to "shove" unions on them; if they unionize, it because the workers feel mistreated by their employer. The employers would be wise to consider this. And no, it won't be worth it if the companies who come back pay their workers salaries they cannot live off of. Corporations like General Electric can well afford to pay their employees a living wage. And its not just about money, its also about rights in the workplace which cost literally nothing to the corporations. Everything in this world isn't just about money contrary to what some may think.

 

Oh boy, here comes the anecdotal evidence by the shovel full. "Why I know a guy who...."! stop that. It's beneath you.

My two businesses are real estate quad apartments and Supplements - R&D and distribution. I hold my businesses in an LLC. I also work as a lawyer. What do you do that permits you to hang out on a chit chat political forum each and every day for 11,000 worth of posts?

"psychobabble"...hahahaha, no those are business organization entities and business associations that benefit the employer...much in the same way Labor unions benefit rank and file workers. And, as an attorney, I have a pretty good idea what corporations, limited liability companies and all the rest mean. You on the other hand, had no idea what those simple and obvious references were. Some business man you are.

What is it you do again? I mean besides hanging out in a chit chat room telling everyone what a success you are.

 

Yours is the globalization rationale for depressing wages, removing benefits and destroying unions. Many companies, that have no problem with hyper capitalism (where they actively undercut their own country just to get the lowest wages---like moving companies overseas...which is inherently un-American) engage in this sort of rationalization.

Because big business willingly puts its own interests ahead of all else, to the detriment of the USA and its workforce, there's a lot of truth to what you stated.

One big way around that is to start dissolving this odious ownership that is undermining our country and replacing it with employee-owned companies. That solves all sorts of problems by making the worker the company owner. Who in their right mind would ship their own jobs overseas just to maximize a buck for short term gain?

 

That's beautifully stated.

 

That's what I don't get about the push from some rank and file employees to just take what's thrown at them by employers in terms of pay and benefits. Where's the backbone? You'll hear every rationalization in the book why these types want to surrender their pay and benefits willingly, as I pointed out in the OP they have all sorts of reasons--"I know economics and unions ruin supply and demand driving wages up artificially and costing jobs", "unions support democrats, I'm a republican" and on and on. These guys couldn't act in their own self-interest if they had a gun to their heads.

As I mentioned, there's an awful beauty to the way the monied elites have so thoroughly dominated and brainwashed these anti-union rank and file workers.

 

One of the reasons we went with Free Trade is wages and inflation was rising to fast. They knew when the y did it that it would bring wages down. But they also thought we could put people to work in these countries and they would have money to buy from us and it would create more jobs and also cut down on illegal immigration. Trouble is, they made the rules to one sided and many more companies left than we thought. So many that we had nothing left to sell the average Mexican and Chinese. All we had left is big ticket items that we sell to their governments and the companies that are there. They now make everything the average citizen needs.

I think I read that the VW plant in Tenn is voting on unions this week. So we'll get a chance to see how happy or mistreated their employees are.

Not only companies that are greedy. The American auto companies were paying something like $70.00 an hour in pay and benefits to put tires, windshield and etc. on vehicles. That's more than any teacher was making and you didn't need a college education to do it. I have seen them strike one and stay out for weeks till the company caved in. It got so expensive the imports were able to come in and grab market share away from them. What really killed them was pensions and health care for retirees and their families. Over two hundred thousands of them, more than what was working. Billions paid out and no compensation coming in.

 

One way to do that is for the employees to buy stock in their company. If they can buy the biggest percentage of stock, they would then have a say what that company does. But I don't look for that to happen very often. Americans aren't savers, they are spenders and they would rather spend than buy stock. But it has been done.

 

The plant was built by Tempe-based First Solar to manufacture solar systems, but that didn't pan out and the building hasn't been used for much.

First Solar put the building on the market and sold it for over $100 million and we've learned Apple will be moving in.

700 jobs in the first year -- Apple employees.

Some 2,000 total when you count all the construction work and other services to get the plant rolling.

Governor Jan Brewer says she is thrilled to have Apple here in the valley because the company will have an incredibly positive economic impact for the state.

The Governor's office and the Arizona Commerce Authority lobbied Apple to come to Arizona, as did Scott Smith, the Mayor of Mesa.

"To have a company like Apple choose to come to Mesa and establish manufacturing facility.. great for Mesa and all of us," said Smith.

Inside the Apple plant, good jobs paying $50,000 a year, according to Smith.

The addition of Apple brings another high-tech powerhouse to the east valley. Intel, of course, has a huge operation in nearby Chandler.

Read more: Apple to build new manufacturing plant in Arizona - FOX 10 News | myfoxphoenix.com http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/2...-manufacturing-plant-in-arizona#ixzz2t5pru9rM
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I would say the wages Apple is bringing back to the US is pretty darn good, since we are a Right to Work state.

 

The Board of Directors of any corporation has a fiduciary duty to act solely in shareholder's interest. Employees are living pieces of equipment that are paid a wage in exchange for agreed upon work. NO fiduciary duty exists between the company and the employees.

Now, let's say you are retired and have a pension. The pension fund invests the money it received from employee and company contributions in order to make money and keep the pensioners monthly checks coming in the mail. Now, the company decides even though the economy is bad and business is down, because they have a heart they decide to put the employees interest above that of the pensioners. That causes the pension funds assets to drop by 30%, they in turn cut your monthly check by 30%. Will you be OK with that?

 

The system you imagine is indescribably immoral and unconscionable. Such a system which allows people to be turned into nothing more than machines, should be destroyed as quickly as possible.

PS. It is extraordinary to see "christians" say things like this. I put christian in quotes, because that statement is antithetical to christianity in every single way, and anyone who believes that isn't actually a christian in anything but name.

 

I never said it was "right", just the way it is. But take hope you can pay your own employes what every you want. You do own a business don't you?

 

You have no clue what a fiduciary duty is.

Besides, the company is supposed to be a fiduciary while these people steal it from under them joining a union?

You watch if the unionize Toyota they won't be moving more plants here.

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Of course it is right. Why would you hire someone you owe a fiduciary duty to? That makes no sense at all and would be totally ass backwards.