Not a 'Christian nation'

No offense but I, for one, could care less about what someone just believes. If it's not the result of reason backed by evidence, it just another faith based belief which to me isn't at all persuasive.

O.K. Neutral, now you can tell me my atheism is faith based but don't bother, that's for another thread...

 

Well you see I have the literature here at the house and I would suggest you actually pick up a book instead of relying on the internet to educate you.

 

I think we are good then.

 

I appreciate your belief, but don't share it.
I don't believe god put the lines on the map. We did that. If the message is true, it is given to the heart of one person at a time, and countries have nothing to do with it.
Just my opinion.

 

If you knew the truth about my background, you would be embarrassed by your post.
Your assumptions are not founded and lead you to inaccurate conclusions.

 

I'm sorry, I was just putting forward an opinion. It was not a post that was in direct response to another post, so if you did not care about my opinion you did not have to bother answering my post at all.

I am not Neutral.

 

I appreciate your opinion. I also think that is what a debating site is all about sharing and arguing opinions. I think if people on this site do not want to come across a different opinion than their own then they should find a site were they are in complete agreement with everyone else.

 

I know stupid ass doctorate holders, ignorant people with masters degrees, buffoons with bachelor degrees and geniuses without even holding a High School diploma. Your background and education are moot if you need to bring it up. What - do you think it means something to a person like me? You sit there and blow off hot air and tell me you can... and you present nothing. You are probably some managers (*)(*)(*)(*)(*) sitting behind a computer at work trying not to be seen wasting company time.

Me? Yeah I have a wall full of degrees, certificates, diplomas, certifications, national honors society certificates... I work for me! I home school my daughter, I have an autistic son that can not attend school full time at this point, I am the guy who has had to turn down six figure jobs (yes I wanted them) because his family need him right where he is. So just blow it out your ass!

Present or shove it.

My work? Marketing and the pay is (*)(*)(*)(*) but at least it is something.

 

Your anger says it all.
I never said what my background was, but simply stated that you would feel foolish because of your unfounded and completely fabricated accusation that I don't read books if you knew what it was.
You were the one making ridiculous assumptions. Now you compound it by making more.
I also work for myself. I hire people and build my organization. The information you have shared about yourself, while fascinating, does not in any way support or denigrate your arguments. It is irrelevant.
But your anger is relevant. I see nothing I have written that would cause you to lose control of yourself like your last post indicated that you have. It tells me you aren't quite as confident about your rabid positions as you pretend to be. As Shakespeare put it, Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
What are you angry at? That the founders didn't march in lockstep to an ideology you want to advance? How is that my fault? The information is out there for those that seek it. It isn't hidden or in an ancient language that has not yet been deciphered. It is a normal part of historical scholarship, not a bone of contention.

 

If this is a Christian nation, why exactly is their freedom of religion and why does the constitution state that you can't make laws according to a religion? That doesn't exactly seem like something a Christian government would do. Where in the Bible does it say you can freely worship whatever god you want?

 

For what it is worth, Sean, every great nation has eventually fallen. Babylon, Greece, Rome, England. Nothing lasts forever. After WWII we took advantage of a world that had been decimated with our own infrastructure that was untouched and did not have to be rebuilt, and entered an era of prosperity that no one could stop at the time. You can call that god working if you like, but it was simply the reality of the post war era. The world has repaired itself now, and other countries are highly competitive with us now. It isn't shooting fish in a barrel anymore.
Besides, the time you look back on with rose colored glasses was perfectly abysmal for some in this country. The 40's and 50's saw a period where blacks and women were simply a different class of people from those that made the wheels of society turn. Some would like to keep it that way, and some of those use the bible to justify their archaic beliefs.

 

I know it was your opinion, you made that very clear. I was just letting you know that I really don't care what your unfounded beliefs are. I only care about reasoned beliefs backed by evidence. Faith based belief simply doesn't influence me in any way and if your posts aren't intended to influence others then why bother? I can't believe you're doing it just for you own benefit. After all you, said that you believe the purpose of a debating site is to share and argue opinions but you also said your opinion wasn't backed by any evidence. That makes it a pretty poor argument as far as I'm concerned. If you begin by telling us you have nothing to back it up, then why should anyone care?

 

Anger? Could you explain this to me? It is not there; I made an observation and that is all.

You are pretty good at the smoke and mirrors though as you again have avoided my request that you provide backup.

You mentioned your background and I essentially said background is (*)(*)(*)(*).

I am smiling at this point as it seems I hit a nerve there and there must have been some truth to my post.

Again present or just fail.

 

If you communicate like the red highlighted portions above when you are not angry, you need to work on your people skills.
I did not mention my background until you suggested I didn't read beyond the internet. It was a response to an unfounded attack by you, another indication of defensive anger.
If I presented what you asked for, quotes in context with citations, in enough quantity to be persuasive to someone as entrenched as yourself in a myth, it would take pages of documentation. When I was done, you would have some inane reasoning why it didn't count. I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that you are capable of research. If the topic actually interests you, you will pursue it.
But it doesn't, does it? What interests you is defending a worldview you have already established.
Yes, you are very angry, and it reveals far more than your arguments do.

 

Yes, for black people in America there was hardship, however America was growing it tried to overcome this racisim. There was all manner of persecution going on at different times in America as it grew and became a great nation. The irish, the italians, the mexican etc, etc all suffered persecution for a time. America had growing pains, it was still evolving, it was progressing, now though I think the opposite is happening and it is regressing. Also some empires lasted an extremely long time.

 

Anger? No - it is how I communicate with a person who is obviously avoiding the question. Mine is not anger it is simply wording to elicit a response which you are still avoiding. You are intentionally moving away from my repeated requests. So present, in fill context with citations any proofs that counter my points or simply forget it and make a bigger dent in your non existent credibility.

 

Twelve pages and nothing.

Should I be surprised?

 

Is the guy in the avatar home schooling a child?
Frightening.
Anyway, here's a starter pack.

Thomas Paine

There is a happiness in Deism, when rightly understood, that is not to be found in any other system of religion. All other systems have something in them that either shock our reason, or are repugnant to it, and man, if he thinks at all, must stifle his reason in order to force himself to believe them.

There is a happiness in Deism, when rightly understood, that is not to be found in any other system of religion. All other systems have something in them that either shock our reason, or are repugnant to it, and man, if he thinks at all, must stifle his reason in order to force himself to believe them.

John Adams

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

And of course, Jefferson.

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." --- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." --- Thomas Jefferson to Carey, 1816

The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy, absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." --- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

A snippet from Madison.

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

And Finally we must note that George Washington, surveyor, wealthy planter, fox hunting sportsman, officer of the Virginia Militia, General of the Continental Army during the War of Independence, President of the Constitutional Convention, and First President of the United States was without a trace of "Christianism". He was so completely indifferent to its pious irascibilities that he never appears to have made any comment on them. Indeed, he seemed, according to the evidence, to have had no instinct or feeling for religion, although he attended church twelve or fifteen times a year.

The name of Jesus Christ is not mentioned even once in the vast collection of Washington's published letters. He refers to Providence in numerous letters, but he used the term as a synonym for Destiny or Fate. Bishop White, who knew him well for many years, wrote after Washington's death that he had never heard him express an opinion on any religious subject. He added that although Washington was "serious and attentive" in church, he never saw him kneel in prayer.

 

One of my favorites, again by Franklin.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble. As quoted in Benjamin Franklin: An Exploration of a Life of Science and Service (193 by Carl Van Doren, p. 777.

 

Washington:
"The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country." - General Orders, July 9, 1776

"The Hon. Continental Congress having been pleased to allow a Chaplain to each Regiment, with the pay of Thirty-three Dollars and one third pr month--The Colonels or commanding officers of each regiment are directed to procure Chaplains accordingly; persons of good Characters and exemplary lives--To see that all inferior officers and soldiers pay them a suitable respect and attend carefully upon religious exercises. The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger--The General hopes and trusts, that every officer and man, will endeavour so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country." - General Orders, July 9, 1776

Jefferson
Dear Sir, In some of the delightful conversations with you, in the evenings of 1798-99, and which served as an anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then laboring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic; and I then promised you, that one day or other, I would give you my views of it. They are the result of a life of inquiry & reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others (“The Thomas Jefferson Papers...,” n.d., emp. added).

Adams
"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

Madison
http://www.revolutionary-war-and-be...monstrance-against-religious-assessments.html
This (above) is very reasonable and he was a church member but I find this very interesting:

http://www.seekfind.net/JamesMadison.html

So; you see, we could go back and forth all day on this but in the end they either belonged to or supported the Church.

And thank you for providing something.

 

My point was always that the attitudes toward the faith were more complicated than the simplistic expression that the Founders were Christian and sought to build a Christian nation.
It is interesting that the quotes you give by Jefferson and Adams show them positively disposed to the "general principles" of the faith, but they never endorse the religion itself. Even their support is guarded and limited.
As I said, what was the point? You aren't even carefully reading your own citations.

 

Have you read all of his letters and his list of virtues?

Temperance: Eat not to Dullness, drink not to elevation
Silence: Speak not but what may benefit others or yourself. Avoid trifling Conversation
Order: Let all your Things have their Places. Let each Part of your Business have its Time
Resolution: Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve.
Frugality: Make no Expense but to do good to others or yourself: i.e. Waste Nothing
Industry: Lose no Time. Be always employ’d in something useful. Cut off all unnecessary Actions
Sincerity: Use no hurtful Deceit. Think innocently and justly; and, if you speak; speak accordingly.
Justice: Wrong none, by doing Injuries or omitting the Benefits that are your Duty.
Moderation: Avoid Extremes. Forbear resenting Injuries so much as you think they deserve.
Cleanliness: Tolerate no Uncleanness in Body, Clothes, or Habitation
Tranquility: Be not disturbed at Trifles, or at Accidents common or unavoidable.
Chastity: Rarely use Venery but for Health or Offspring; Never to Dullness, Weakness, or the Injury of your own or another’s Peace or Reputation.
Humility: Imitate Jesus and Socrates.

Franklin was more of an Agnostic (deist if you will) than any of the others that get accused of it. After reading his biography and learning that he tried to start his own religion I came to the conclusion that Franklin was very eccentric but he did hold Christian values; though he was a whore monger in his youth and got married to prevent catching disease from his sexual exploitations.

By the way Bruce this is what I wanted. Discussion. No winner or loser just enlightenment.

 

Yes I am. I think we are looking at two different things here. And coming from the English rule they would have been guarded as to their open speech so they would not be seen in the same light as English rule.

 

Yes, I read his autobiography years ago.

 

They were careful to not alienate the believers while being true to their own less dogmatic beliefs.
Politicians, first, last and always.