Should Trump be indicted for illegal exercise of Medicine?

Well, he had presidential immunity. No longer.

 

Excuses Excuses. Presidential immunity doesn't protect against silent indictment, though he could not be taken into custody while in office in the vast majority of cases. If there was evidence to sufficient to support indictment, he would be indicted.

Besides, even stipulating to your erroneous argument, it's been 8 months, where are the indictments?

So sure, indict him for the "illegal exercise of medicine." I dare you.

 

I don't have such hopes here. But I'm thrilled that the Brazilians are doing it, in a VERY similar situation. I wish we hat the guts, here.

The very moment when I started turning against Trump (for a while I entertained the idea of voting for him) was when he started the stupid hydroxychloroquine thing. Knowing very well about the QTc prolongation this drug can cause (which leads to a cardiac arrhythmia, often fatal, called Torsade de Pointes), and the fact that the SARS-CoV-2 is prone to increasing this risk by virtue of viral myocarditis, I was watching that press conference live, and when he said "you have nothing to lose, take it" I went "OH! MY! GOD! This is bad!" Then he said "it's very safe, it's used for malaria and lupus" and I was thinking, "no, doofus, safety of a drug is disease-specific; it is safe for malaria and lupus which don't have an impact on QTc, but it won't be safe for Covid!!! And what do you know anyway? You're not a doctor or a pharmacologist!!!"

It wasn't just the stupid medical advice issued on prime time TV... his administration wanted a victory at all costs and they kept pushing HCQ. I remember a journalistic investigative piece detailing how hospitals in New York were pressured to prescribe it... how the FDA was pressured to issue an EUA for it... and so on and so forth.

Then people started dying... lots of VA patients... a trial in Manaus, Brazil, had to be cancelled midway because Covid-19 patients who weren't that sick and could have survived the virus, started dropping dead of sudden arrhythmias in the HCQ arm of the study...

The FDA insert on HCQ has had a warning against the QTc prolongation since 2007... And Trump was touting giving it to patients ADDED to azithromycin, ANOTHER medication that increases the QTc...

I thought at the time, "this is a disaster" and I felt very mad at it.

So, when Brazil indicted their president for the EXACT SAME REASON, yeah, I applauded.

What erroneous argument??? What he did was incredibly inappropriate and ultimately contributed to the death of many who could have survived the virus. HCQ not only doesn't work for Covid, but is also detrimental and toxic for Covid patients, like all advanced FDA-like agencies (including ours) in all the serious countries will tell you.

Look, chemotherapy is safe and beneficial for patients with leukemia in order to decrease the detrimental huge excess of white blood cells that this blood cancer causes... and fatal if you give it to people who do not have leukemia (who will have their white blood cells that are in normal number, wiped out).

So, no, Trump, HCQ being safe for lupus and malaria has nothing to do with safety for Covid-19...

So, he said, "what do you have to lose? Take it!" Well, it's simple: in certain cases, what you have to lose is your life.

Not having the expertise to fully understand the consequences of his advice, Trump should have kept his mouth shut. Period. And yes, months later I'm still mad at this.

 

The problem is the lack of evidence necessary to support an indictment. Do you want Trump indicted inspite of insufficient evidence for indictment?

 

What evidence do you need? His statements are saved at the White House's Speeches and Remarks and Press Briefing Archives. There is no doubt that he issued these words.

Oh, and by the way, not just HCQ...

"I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way you can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs."

LOL

 

In Brazil, the former Minister of Health, a medical doctor who refused to obey President Bolsonaro's order to recommend HCQ and was then fired by him... (who got another medical doctor there, ordered him to do the same, he refused too, was fired too... and then Bolsonaro nominated for Minister of Health an Army general with no medical expertise who had a disastrous tenure), came up with a new term today... he called the president and his acolytes "chlorokillers."

LOL

 

Do you think I'm a Grand Jury?

Like a nebulizer with an iodine solution? That's exactly what my doctor told me to do if I got COVID, and in fact informed me that it will work on any virus. There is no bacteria, virus, fungus or parasite known to be resistant to iodine.

So sure, indict Trump for that. I dare you.

 

In some countries you can get HCQ over the counter. With decades of use it is very well known. A Belgium study that used normal recommended doses of only HCQ showed a 30% improvement in Covid patients. Previous studies used much higher than recommended doses. Combined with zinc and vitamin D which both show improvement separately, it works very well on Covid in reducing severe illness.

The only consequence of Trumps advice was the hair on fire reaction of the severe TDS sufferers which ended up limiting a life saving (and cheap) treatment.

 

See I am looking for the elements required to prove this charge. What is the legal definition of 'practicing medicine' and how do we distinguish it from what any lay person does, anytime they recommend their cousin try "xxxx" for their migraines, or that they ask their pediatrian about "yyyyy" to help treat those ADHD symptoms in Little Bobby. In no way did he ever suggest that he was a doctor or that he had medical expertise beyond his education, so whatever statute in whatever jurisdiction we look to, has to use a pretty broad definition.

 

Well, I hope you realize they need to put warnings on many things for stupid people. Taking the OP seriously needs a warning.

 

LOL, you actually do think that a nebulizer with an iodine solution treats Covid-19?
LOL LOL LOL
Your doctor thinks so? Free advice (you're welcome): change doctors. Get rid of this moron.

 

Again, in the OP I merely referred to the Brazilian case where they indicted the president for charlatanism and illegal exercise of medicine based on his relentless recommendation of HCQ and Ivermectin to the population. As defined by their penal code, this charge applies to people who publicize and foster magical cures that are not supported by scientific evidence, which is exactly what Jair Bolsonaro did. Three months to two years in jail, if convicted. Over here I doubt that we'd be able to pull this off. But I do think that if we could, it would be an interesting indictment. Because, see, one of the arguments in Brazil was the magnitude and reach of this wrong medical advice issued by a non-qualified politician... he has a large following so many people there resorted to useless HCQ (which his government distributed) and useless Ivermectin (which can be obtained without a prescription in veterinary pharmacies) instead of looking for vaccines and taking necessary epidemiological protections... So Bolsonaro's wrongful advice has very likely resulted in the death of many of his followers... That's a lot worse than the examples you are giving.

When the city of Manaus had the first big outbreak of the Gamma variant, they ran out of oxygen bottles in hospitals. People were dying like flies, suffocated. So Bolsonaro dispatched his Health Minister to Manaus (that's the Army General with no medical expertise). One would think, OK, the minister will come in with a big shipment of oxygen bottles... but no, the Minister looked at the situation and said, "just give them hydroxychloroquine." LOTS of people died. So, yes, the Brazilians are furious. When asked about why he had done that in Manaus, the Minister said: "it's simple, Bolsonaro orders, I obey."

An indictment is not a conviction. Maybe Bolsonaro will come out of this unscathed, although now a Supreme Court Justice over there referred to the AG another criminal complaint, that Bolsonaro in his attempt to undermine Brazil's voting system (he is copying from Trump the idea that the electronic voting machines are corrupted so when he predictably loses the 2022 election he will claim fraud and won't relinquish power), violated the secrecy of a federal police investigation (which is a felony there). They are also about to charge him with prevarication in the bribing scheme to buy the Covaxin vaccine at inflated prices with a kickback.

So, the chargers are piling up... if convicted, Brazilian law called Ficha Limpa (Clean Slate) is such that he would be ineligible to run for re-election, given that they require no criminal convictions of a candidate for him/her to legally run.

Most likely other charges will stick better... the violation of the investigation's secrecy is pretty clear given that he did it on national TV - gave a press conference revealing the details of this secret investigation by their FBI equivalent. The prevarication charge is harder to prove because he used proxies.... but I find interesting that they ALSO charged him with charlatanism and illegal exercise of medicine for his HCQ and Ivermectin recommendations.

 

It is the same

Someone complains about a problem and you tell them go to the doctor and get a shot of antibiotics.

If doctors have to prescribe it then his advice is meaningless.

 

The OP seems to be under the impression that trump can be prosecuted for violating a Brazil law. That’s pretty odd.

 

It's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth. I said it's similar but I doubt it would happen here, and highlighted the difference in laws regarding sitting presidents.

 

Go tell that to the guy who died when he ingested chloroquine intended for fish tanks right after Trump issued that press briefing.

 

The vaccine can cause injury and death so would this apply to Biden?

 

Careful there. Doctors who advertise those kind of treatments for covid have received warnings from the FTC:

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blo...e-ftc-warning-letters-say-enough-questionable

In general, inhaling strong oxidizing agents is not an advisable course of action. Imagine this: If it oxidizes the virus or mucus, it probably also oxidizes molecules in the cells lining your airways. If I were you, I'd question my doctor about this, or, better, change doctors. There is a reason chlorine (an oxidizer, just as iodine) was used as a chemical warfare agent in WWI.

 

Should Trump be indicted for illegal exercise of Medicine?

I don't know. But he should be indicted for this.

It shall be unlawful for any person to intimidate, threaten, command, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, command, or coerce, any employee of the Federal Government as defined in section 7322(1) of title 5, United States Code, to engage in, or not to engage in, any political activity, including, but not limited to, voting or refusing to vote for any candidate or measure in any election, making or refusing to make any political contribution, or working or refusing to work on behalf of any candidate. Any person who violates this section shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/610

Trump repeatedly tried to coerce acting AG Rosen in to interfering with the result of the election.

If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
If, however, the offense, the commission of which is the object of the conspiracy, is a misdemeanor only, the punishment for such conspiracy shall not exceed the maximum punishment provided for such misdemeanor.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371

Trump conspired with Jeffrey Clarke to defraud the US.

 

I can't help noticing that you didn't deny the "political" aspect.

I agree what he said was wrong and that it could have had negative consequences. I still think it is ridiculous to call it "practicing medicine without a licence".

I'm not convinced the relevant constitutions are especially relevant, this is just about criminal law. Based on the OP article, it seems Bolsonaro made more and more specific statements about particular drugs and Brazil has different laws against "quackery and faith healing" so the situations aren't directly comparable. Anyway, just because Brazil does something doesn't automatically make it a good or right thing to do.

 

What does a moron like that have to do with anything?

 

Huh, what? Why would I deny the political aspect? Everything in this is political. Life is political. Have you notice the title of this forum we are members of? Hint, it's called POLITICAL Forum, right up there. Yes, I politically oppose Trump. I think Bolsonaro is an idiot too.

Medicine without a license: I don't think it's as ridiculous as you say. Having gone through the trouble of pre-med, medical school, residency training, and board exams, and countless hours of extenuating work and study, yes, i have a BIG problem with people with no qualifications who think they can dispense medical advice, especially when the medical advice is so wrong and dangerous, which has demonstrably resulted in some people dying (the couple who drank chloroquine, the husband died, the wife survived with severe organ damage, she was interviewed and said "we did it because Trump said we had nothing to lose."

Brazilian criminal law: good point. I said in my OP, there are differences and I asked for people's opinions; you provided a valid one. I said I don't think this would fly here. I said I wish we could do something similar. It certainly would discourage future politicians from having this boneheaded attitude.

 

He and his wife drank the chloroquine. He died, she survived with severe organ damage. When interviewed and asked why they did it, she replied "Trump said we had nothing to lose. We trusted Trump, we thought it would prevent us from getting Covid." This unfortunate chloroquine poisoning IIRC happened 1 or 2 days after Trump's press briefing, when he issued the "take it, you have nothing to lose." That's a DIRECT disastrous consequence of someone practicing medicine without a license... Yes, the poor couple, they were idiots, but yes, the country is full of idiots, and a president should watch better what he says. Especially one who says he loves the uneducated, and whose following statistically speaking can be factually demonstrated to include a larger proportion of uneducated people. Yes, the couple were morons... and they believed the medical advice of an unqualified moron, one of them died, the other will have lifelong health problems.

 

Help us to understand the legal parameters of your position. Can you supply a quote from Trump illustrating what you are implying that might constitute him illegally practicing medicine? What did he say specifically that in your mind qualifies as illegally practicing medicine?

 

They are soley responsible for their own actions end of story