QUOTE=Dissily Mordentroge;1066084392] Then how do you explain those like me, born Jewish but developing an absolute loathing for all semitic tribal religions and the immense human suffering all those so called holy books have unleashed on our species? (In case that confuses you I'm refering to Judaism, Christianity and Islam.) " [/QUOTE] Well since you asked: How do I explain your positions? Well you asked: source: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/self-hating-jews/ " The Roots of Self-Hatred Today, accusations of Jewish self-hatred are most commonly levied in discussions of Israel and Zionism. Interestingly, the modern concept of Jewish self-hatred actually has its roots in early debates about political Zionism, where the groundwork for its use was laid by Theodor Herzl, founder of modern Zionism. .... ...The term “self-hatred” was popularized in the United States in the 1940s, when it first appeared in an essay written by psychologist Kurt Lewin “Self-Hatred among Jews” in Contemporary Jewish Record, in 1941. The essay was more widely distributed when it was published with a collection of Lewin’s other essays in his book, Resolving Social Conflicts, in 1948. Lewin, a German Jew who immigrated to the US in 1932, explained Jewish self-hatred as a phenomenon in which Jews, regarded as a minority or “other” by the host societies they lived in, resented and distanced themselves from all things Jewish. In other words, Lewin claimed, Jewish self-hatred occurs when society marginalizes Jews, who then internalize the sense of marginalization." and source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0018_0_17991.html "It was first diagnosed in Central European Jewish social theory and fiction. As expressed by Jews, it is both a group phenomenon and an individual trait. One Jewish group may take a hostile position toward another, e.g., German Jews against East European Jews in Europe; Orthodox Jews against Conservative and Reform Jews in the United States and the State of Israel; and vice versa. A Jew who expresses self-hatred, according to Kurt Lewin, "will dislike everything specifically Jewish, for he will see in it that which keeps him away from the majority for which he is longing. He will show dislike for those Jews who are outspokenly so, and will frequently indulge in self-hatred" (Lewin, Resolving Social Conflicts. p. 164). " also: K. Lewin, Resolving Social Conflicts; Selected Papers on Group Dynamics (194, 159–68, 186–200; T. Lessing, Der juedische Selbsthass (1930); J. Neusner, in: Midstream 15 (1969), 34–53; idem, American Judaism: Adventure in Modernity (1972), 15–34, 61–116. and: " The Jew, Israeli or not, who does not know our history sufficiently well, who does not truly understand the context of the conflict between Israel and the Arabs, shouts out: “Not me! I’m not that kind of Jew.” This Jew tries to separate himself or herself from the Jew reflected in the eyes of contemporary haters. This Jew even shouts out: “Not In My Name,” meaning: “I’m a good Jew, not like those Jews there!” This Jew even conspires with the haters, imploring the haters to boycott that Jew and to file a suit against that Jew in the International Criminal Court. This Jew is no different than Tiberius; he used his knowledge of Jewish life to serve as advisor to the Roman legions that destroyed the very Temple the gates of which were constructed using resources donated by his own father." source: http://www.israeldiaries.com/antitoward-the-making-of-self-hating-jews/
The same way I would explain why there are Palestinians horrified about what Hamas, the PA and their policies or the policies of other extremists and terrorists towards Israelis. Did you have a point? I do in response: source: http://www.israeldiaries.com/antitoward-the-making-of-self-hating-jews/ "Self-hating Jews, like many of us, have learned that each and every Jew represents The Jewish People in the eyes of those who hate us and those who do not (see: Once a Jew Always a Jew). Therefore, they have one of two options: (1) pretend they are not Jews at all; or (2) try to filter out those of us who, they think, reflect badly upon themselves. The latter are trying to create a Homogenized Jewish People, one they believe would render us acceptable to the non-Jewish world. If only the non-Jewish world would see how good we really are, they would not hate us so much, as if the hater distinguishes between this Jew and that Jew. Not every Jew who criticizes the behaviour of our country is a self-hating Jew. Criticism is legitimate and important. However, there is a difference between criticism that attempts to make this country a better one and criticism voiced in such a way as to provide ammunition to the Jew-haters who seek our demise. The former can tolerate the tensions among all our diverse views and the latter is threatened by it. The former can feel pride in our accomplishments, grief in our tragedies and dismay at our faults; the latter feels little if any pride in our accomplishments, righteousness in face of our tragedies and gloats about our faults. THAT is self-hatred." You came on here to make a point of defining yourself as a Jew, then rejecting who you are as a Jew by saying you don't like the religion. Plenty of Jews don't strictly follow or even believe in Judaism, they still call themselves Jews. For that matter Zionism rejected conventional Judaism just as you did. Your rejecting the Jewish religion as being one and the same as rejecting the idea of a Jew as a national citizen is just not true. They are not the same. In fact ultra orthodox Jews as you are well aware are as anti Zionist as you. Which is why I again quote the above t you and say: "Jews Israeli or not who do not know our history, who do not truly understand the context of the Middle East, seem to be able to regain their sense of security as good people only by agreeing to recognize themselves in the mirror set up by haters reflecting their distorted image back to them." I think your words have shown you reject anything to do with the notion you could be identified as a JEW not just Jewish or Christian or Muslim religions. I criticize Israel as do all Israelis and Zionists. A minute does not go by in a day when Israelis openly question their government's policies on how to deal with Palestinians. The vast majority of Israelis are not religious at all. The only difference is they don't try make their birth essence vanish. They are not ashamed of their birthright. Zionists created Israel because unlike you they experienced that even when they converted to Christianity, walked and talked like a Christian, it didn't matter-Hitler defined them as Jews anyways and so did the people in Europe who they thought were their friends and had accepted him. The point is if you had just come on the board and said, you don't agree with Israeli state policies towards Palestinians I would have said me too sometimes. But you didn't. You connected it to you rejecting Jewish identity a different issue.
Supposing it was true - which is not - since when are Israel's demands granted by the world community?
Israel is the only TRUE democracy in the Middle East. Israel shares common basic values with the USA, and is our only true ally in the region. Israel is a western democratic state. so, we expect them same from them as we would any state in western europe, such as Britain, France, or Germany.
Fair enough, with the added condition that they are at war against enemies who have their violent destruction as their official policy so, lets compare them with any state in western Europe in the middle of WWII. Compare away Ronstar!
Here, I shall go first. They have yet to firebomb an entire city or drop a nuclear weapon frying a hundred thousand people. Seems they are doing pretty good so far. Your turn, maybe you can take the Nazi Germany side and show how they are good because they have yet to deliberately and systematically kill twelve million people because of who they were at birth. See, when you compare apples with apples they come out pretty good. So, now that we are comparing Israel with western nations who are at war with their neighbors we can get down to the nuts and bolts of it all. They can be like Britain and get aid from the US to ward off the forces of Nazi Germany. See, they are just like Europe was during wartime.
Here's more. See how Israel compares with the red Army when they won a war; ""According to historian William Hitchcock, in many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times.[13] At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[10] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath"" I looked but couldn't find any such evidence of Israelis raping Palestinians. I guess Israel wins against the Russians in this comparison. Say, I'm looking for a link that can tell us the facts on how much aid the Allied nations supplied to German civilians during this war. Something about fresh water, electricity or gas that was allowed to pass through to Germany at that time would be good so we could compare it to what Israel allows through to Gaza. Anybody?
Was just cruising around the net Ronstar. I found this item on Japan from WWII; ""The groundwork for the Allied occupation of a defeated Japan was laid during the war. In a series of wartime conferences, the leaders of the Allied powers of Great Britain, the Soviet Union, the Republic of China, and the United States discussed how to disarm Japan, deal with its colonies (especially Korea and Taiwan), stabilize the Japanese economy, and prevent the remilitarization of the state in the future. In the Potsdam Declaration, they called for Japan’s unconditional surrender; by August of 1945, that objective had been achieved."" I'm not advocating that Israel drop nukes on the Palestinians or any other ME nation that has a policy of war against Israel or calls for her violent destruction or has declared war and has yet to sign and ratify a peace treaty, just showing what can happen with a western nation like Israel once peace is achieved. There is no indication that once this occurs Israel would do different. Once again, I'm so happy that we are comparing apples to apples, Israel at war compared to the West at war.
Oh, don't forget 911 when the US was attacked and conducted regime change in two different nations. The Allies took out the entire Nazi Regime and occupied Germany as well. Israel could have done something like that one multiple times but never did. They could have taken out Cairo, Damascus, Amman, Gaza and the West Bank at will but they didn't. For being a western nation at war they are doing a lot better than any other democratic nation at war ever was.
Riddled with extraordinary almost pseudo-freudain gibberish and totally unjustified presumptions. You may consider my 'jewishness' any way you wish but it couldn't be more peculiar than mine. I grew up in a Jewish neighbourhood in the only yok family in the street. Not until my mid 50's did I learn anything about my 'jewishness'. At a family funeral after burying my uncle on my mothers side a cousin asked me did I want to see my Grandmother's grave. Up the hill we went and I spotted the name Rebecca on the gravestone he stood in front of. "Rebecca,? That's not my Gran" was my response. "Yes it is, she was Jewish" First I knew about it as it had been kept a dark secret ever since she married my Grandfather, even to the extent of altering her first name. Given the matriarchal line determines one's 'Jewishness' from a rabbinic perspective I could if I wished to go through the necessary rigmarole and ritual and take on that identity. However I did not think of myself as Jewish and still don't. My perspective on all religion is that of an agnostic. Only afterward discovering my Gran's true identity did I learn she had been married previously and lost her first husband, all her children, her brother, three sisters, Uncles and Aunts in the holocaust. As to not knowing the history of the tribe of Isreal you have no basis for such an pressumption and I have no need of proving otherwise. And in giving me a lecture on the secular identity of Isrealis and other matters you are again presuming an ignorance I have no reason to disabuse you of. This conversation is at an end.
Could you mention only one? Could you also explain the incoherent display of Flags when your residence is in Queens New York?
Not only that... but Israel has a problem with the Arab population... There are at least (more or less) than 300 Jewish women that were forcibly led by young Arabs to small Arab villages and forced to marry the Arab kidnapper... the Rabbinate has managed to retrieve some but alas not all for this could be another case of Islamophobia...
You made a point of coming on this forum and explaining how you reject your Jewish identity and asked why you did. So given you response, let me put it in non "pseudo(sic)-freudain(sic) gibberish for you-if you don't want people to see your short-comings, don't unzip and expose them.
When people come on this board to discuss Israel and make it a point to insert in their answer they reject their own Jewish religious identity and therefore Israel I point out once again, the Zionist definition of a Jew and the religious one are not the same. If a person wants to share their rejection of Judaism they should go to the religious threads but it does raise an interesting point as to why self denying Jews single out Israel for criticism in a way different than non Jews which I will explain. To start with, each day, in Israel and in the Jewish communities across the world outside Israel, criticism of Israeli policies and even the question, "who is a Jew", continues. We Jews come from a system of thought taught in the Talmud to constantly debate. No concept or idea is fixed and is constantly meant to be debated to give it new contexts,applications and meanings. If one was self hating as a Jew for simply criticizing Israel that would mean every Jew qualifies. We criticize Israel and ourselves as a matter of existence. We engage in an on-going and often quite emotional debate about what humanistic values we Jews should follow and whether our religion's values about humanitarian values come into conflict with current Israeli state policies. Israel has numerous Israeli Jewish human rights organizations calling Israel out on legal and human rights issues with Palestinians. Plus Israel has an active court system, Knesset (parliament), citizens groups, individual civilians, political parties and media doing the same. That criticism of course by itself is not self hating. If someone comes on this forum and discusses Israeli state policies and criticizes them, that's fair play. So why then does it require the critic to then dd his own personal identity issue? Does rejecting one's Jewish identity make their criticism of Israeli state policies more credible? Of course not. Their personal identity is not what defines what makes a human right violation. What happens though is we see some, do not differentiate their feelings of their own Jewish identity with the reason Israel exists. They then do not criticize Israeli human rights offences ut in fact question the right of Israel t be Jewish and Israelis to be Jewish. That is where I step in and say-if when you claim to challenge Israeli state policies, you in fact don't and instead question why certain Jews choose to be Israeli that's a separate issue and in regards to this thread you can see what it shows is that Israel is singled out by self-rejecting Jews as it is certain non Jews-because its seen to be Jewish and its being Jewish is then blamed for all evils transpiring with the Palestinian conflict. Its that need to claim that the moment a Jew chooses to be an Israeli its the reason for all the conflicts that I question. The people who raise this Israel should not be a Jewish stae argument do not use the same reasoning with Muslim states or Christian ones They only apply it to Jews and this is why I challenge such people for their inconsistency in supporting Muslim states on one breath but denying a Jewish state in the next breath. We Jews are blamed collectively whether we are Israeli or not for not just the suffering of Palestinians but many other things. I question that the same reason I would anyone who tries to blame all Palestinians or Muslims for the Middle East conflicts or ills in the world. Palestinians wanting to be free are not terrorists. That does not make them terrorist any more than it makes Israelis terrorists for wanting to be free in their state. The question though is why do some Jews feel the need to say they deny being Jewish in a thread about Israel? Why? One asked why he is like that, and when I answered he didn't like the answer? Why? What does being agnostic have to do with Israel's right to being a Jewish state. If a Jew says to me, hey I am not a Jew, I am an agnostic, so? How does that relate to telling other Jews, they should not have the right to express their Jewishness in another way just as that person chooses to be agnostic? What makes this agnostic expect people to accept his being a non Jew and agnostic and then in the same breath listen to how fter he demands to be accepted the way he defines himself, he then condemns others for choosing to identify as Jewish nationals? Why is Israel singled out as if its the only state t protect a particular ethnic group through a national definition no different than over 145 other nations on this planet? I would suggest Israel is singled out precisely because it chooses to be Jewish and certain Jews single it out using it as a vehicle to rationalize distancing themselves from being Jewish. Israel is not just a symbol of the Jewish religious identity, but the identify of a Jew that is NOT religious at all. It symbolizes a definition of Jew that means, even where the Jew ceases to follow the religion, they continue to identify as a Jew in other ways and to the self hating Jew, that's scary. If a self hating Jew can erase their Jewishness by turning agnostic and changing their name, all their problems disappear. The problem is Zionism doesn't allow that because its not a religious identity-its a political one born in direct response to anti Semitism and a kid of anti Semitism that did not say to Jews, convert and you'll be fine but said-it doesn't matter if you convert, will track you down, find your Jewish blood connection and exterminate you. The self hating Jew deludes himself into thinking choice anti Zionist words makes him acceptable in an otherwise threatening world that hates Jews. Jews like any minority have two basic choices. Accept who they are and what they were born with, or reject it. Acceptingf one's minority status, whether it be black skin, Jewish identity, gayness, gender, its a given that you can deny or accept. In the case of discussion about Israel it allows Jews to try take the Jewish part of themselves they don' like, redefine it as an external thing not an internal thing, i.e., Israel, Israelis, and spurning that part of themselves externalized into the form of Israel and Israelis. As a Jew who does not repress his identity, I feel pretty much the way a gay man or woman would in the presence of a fellow self hating gay or a black person listening to a fellow black person calling themselves the n w ord. I am not saying we Jews or gays or blacks can't be critical of ourselves, but there's a way to do it to engage in constructive exercises to become more humane and positive and others that just self defeat. As a Jew I am always amazed that the self effacing humour of black on black or gay on gay humour is not different than Jewish on Jewish humour. Its just I have never seen as many blacks or gays denounce their collective identities as I have my own people. That's probably subjective. I just think we Jews need to understand some of us single out Israel as a scapegoat for our own inner turmoil and repression of identity. I sometimes think we need to take more pride the way certain blacks or gays do or the Irish or Italians do for their identities. I wish Jews could talk of Israel the way Irish to of Eire or Italians, Italy or Anglicans, England. I am not talking false pride and being militant, but simply being like say Jackie Robinson or Martin Luther King and standing tall about your identity without apologizing and denying it. I just don't think we Jews need to be so afraid of who we are and what happened to us, we come on Israeli threads to deny who we are. It makes no sense to me. I was taught never to apologize for being who I am only if I have done something to hurt another.
folks have a right to choose their primary political issue of choice. some care about climate change. some care about animal welfare. some care about the kidnapped girls in Nigeria. some care about Syrian refugees. some care about illegal immigrants. some care about student debt reform. some care about Israel. you got a problem with that?
Reject my Jewish identity? ( a phrase that covers a multitude of sins, saintliness and everything in between) I never had a Jewish identity until I learnt in middle age my maternal grandmother was Jewish. Can I suggest you've got the wrong end of the stick?
Generally... Granted! . Generally... Granted! Generally... Granted! Generally... Granted! Generally... Granted! Generally... Granted! You really could have fooled me... I have you listed as the most 'virulent Israel enemy'... At least the Arabs come clean and state it loudly! Yes!!! I hate those that are not 'constant' and foist a continuous political ideology that undermine my country!
so this is the message: "you can criticize Israel, but if you do you are an anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi terrorist who should face criminal penalties"
