Terrorists fire rockets from Gaza hospital

And the thousands of rockets fired into Israel?

 

I've repeated it on here frequently. But since you ask I'll repeat it again just for you and dopey bollox's benefit. I'm no fan of Hamas. They are anti-Semitic and have been accused by Amnesty International and other NGOs of human rights abuses against the people of Gaza and of war crimes against the people of Israel. Firing rockets into civilian areas isn't justified under international law. However, their struggle against foreign military occupation is a legitimate one even if their tactics of firing rockets into civilian areas isn't. Having said all that the actions of Hamas, no matter how illegal and misguided, have to be seen within their correct historical context - in other words, against the backdrop of decades of Israeli violations of international law, illegal Israeli expansionism, ethnic cleansing, blockades, occupation and settlement building. In the absence of any intervention by the international community by way of the R2P doctrine on the one hand, and the constant use of the U.S veto against illegal Israeli expansionism on the other, they are faced with a very difficult dilemma. By doing nothing, the Palestinian people will be ethnically cleansed sooner rather than later had they not attempted to fight back. Whichever way they choose, the intention of the Israeli's since Plan D has been to ethnically cleanse them from their land regardless. So for the Palestinian's it comes down to a question of self-respect and dignity.

 

Now I know who you are and especially the level of your evaluations.
Just the opposite Gaza would die without the <THOUSANDS OF TONS> of food and water, medicine and building material Israel supplies daily... please go make your own researches to substantiate what I have already said.

 

I downloaded and app that the Israeli government uses to send out rocket fire warnings to their citizens. It is real time and lists which districts might be in danger as soon as a rocket firing is detected. It goes off so frequently that I would probably have severe health uses associated with severe anxiety. When you do realize how many rockets are being fired, 14% starts sounding incredibly dangerous. I would not board a plane that had a 14% chance of crashing. I would not have unprotected sex with a woman that has a 14% chance of giving me HIV. I would not eat food that has a 14% chance of killing me. It is easy to sit back in the comfort of our homes in perfect safety and judge the Israelis for trying to secure their population. You are touting that 14% like it is a small number, but when life/death is hinged upon it, it becomes a very large number. You keep using the words reasonable and objective, but a reasonable person would not sit idly by waiting for their 14% visitor to ring the doorbell. Both sides are at fault and I have issue with many things on both sides of the border there... however I do not have issue with a people defending themselves from an organization that is intentionally trying to kill civilians. You have the right to condemn there for it, but you will not convince me that self defense is a criminal act in and of itself.

 

I see that you have mastered the use of the word bigot in your campaign against people who have a different opinion of world events than you do. I consider myself fortunate that I do not think everyone should think like me or they are bigots. I am grateful that I can see people as benefits to society even if they have different views of the world than I do.

 

If they wanted to wipe out the Palestinians they could have already done it without breaking a sweat. I am surprised that they have shown as much restraint as they have. I have no desire to debate this with you because I figured your game out a long time ago. You can respond to this post if you like but it will probably just be ignored.

 

You almost had me. I was agreeing with you all the way up to ethnic cleansing, then I rolled my eyes. Almost man, almost.

MOD EDIT - Reply to Deleted

 

Lets keep the tone respectful, whether you agree with the other side or not.

 

I'm doing my best to do so. Thanx for the encouragement.

 

If you understood the concept of ethnic cleansing as, for example, outlined by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe in his excellent book, The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine, there would be no confusion on your part.

 

You do not understand that the Israeli strategy, historically, is one whereby the intention is to ethnically cleanse them from their land incrementally and by stealth. That explains your confusion. If you don't understand the meaning of ethnic cleansing as it applies to the Palestinian's (which you don't), and you don't understand Israeli strategy, historically (which you don't), then I suppose you can hardly be blamed for not having a clue WTF you are talking about.

 

The point is, as the article I cited highlights, official Israeli public statements contradict one another thus they tend to give the lie to their own propaganda. Yes, their is a fear within the Israeli public that a rocket may kill them, but the civilian casualty figures thus far suggest that the fear is greatly overblown and exaggerated by the Israeli's for propaganda purposes. Read the article I cited and try to comprehend it.

 

Your first mistake was letting the writers of articles determine your opinion of the conflict. Everything after that was just irresponsible grand standing. Have a good day sir.

 

WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE
First some introductions:

1) What is "The People of Israel" ?

The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
They have their own particular, essential nature.
The Torah is the source of their essential nature.
Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.
Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.
The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.
Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.
2) What is Zionism?

Zionism is a relatively new thing.
It has only existed for a century.
Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.
Their misfortune is lack of what other nations possess, i.e. a state and army.
Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist thought, and among the leaders of the Zionist State, that through changing the nature and character of the People of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation" -- a state and an army.
The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:

FIRST -- The so-called "State of Israel" is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above. The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation," and the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. This is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.

SECOND -- Because of all of this and other reasons the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. If we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

THIRD -- Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.

FOURTH -- Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power from fulfilling the commands of the Torah, the claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight with all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.

The Zionists claim that they are the saviors of Israel, but this is refuted by twelve things:

FIRST -- If one contemplates the two thousand years of our exile, take any hundred years even the hardest, one will not find as much suffering, bloodshed, and catastrophes for the People of Israel in the period of the Zionists, and it is known that most of the suffering of this century was caused by the Zionists, as our Rabbis warned us would be the case.

SECOND -- It is openly stated in books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they planned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did - They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See the books Perfidy, Min Hameitzor, etc.). The Zionists continue to practice this strategy today. They incite anti-Semitism and then they present themselves as the "saviors". Here are two replies given by Leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d forbid).
Weitzman said, "The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant" (May we be spared).

THIRD -- We see that most of world Jewry lives in security and under good physical conditions, and have no desire to go live in the Zionist State. Whereas many people have left the Zionist State to live under better conditions in other lands.

FOURTH -- The Zionists make a great deal of propaganda to induce people to immigrate to their state. If their state is so beneficial why do they have to make so much propaganda.

FIFTH -- Because nobody wants the Zionists to "save" them. The only way they can get immigrants is by promising poor people material benefits, and even then very few people respond.

SIXTH -- The Zionist State is always threatened by the dangers of war. Whereas the rest of world Jewry live in peace and security, (Except in a few places where the Zionists have undermined their security and fanned the flames of hatred)

SEVENTH -- The Zionist State could not continue to exist without economic support from Jews living outside of the Zionist State.

EIGHTH -- The Zionist State is on the verge of economic collapse, and their money is nearly worthless.

NINTH -- The Zionist State persecute all Jews who are loyal to their Faith.

TENTH -- They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.

ELEVENTH - According to the Torah the path of safety is following ways of peace not starting fights with other nations, as the Zionists do.

TWELFTH -- Even if the Zionists could and would provide physical security it would be at the expense of our Faith and Our Torah the true People of Israel prefer death rather than life at such a cost.

It is therefore clear that Zionism is not the savior of the people of Israel. Rather it is their greatest misfortune.

Even though there are some observant Jews and rabbis, who approve of the Zionists, this is not the opinion of the Torah.

The Zionists have enough control over the American news media to make sure that only their side of the story is heard.

They make it look like all Jewry and their rabbis are Zionists, but this is false propaganda.

The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious Jewry are opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of American news media.

The Zionists terrorize everyone who speaks out against them.

That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.

Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.

We bring three testimonies of the true opinion of the Torah.

1) In the past two thousand years of the dangers and sufferings of exile not once did any of the Sages of Israel suggest that we make a state to protect ourselves. In every generation we had thousands of Sages well versed in the Torah.

2) We have thousands of legal work of Torah law that have been handed down to us by the Sages of all generations. Not once do we see a word suggesting the establishment of a state. What we do find is warnings against it.

3) The founders of Zionism were all atheists who denied the Torah. All the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.

However the true People of Israel will never change their nature or give up their Faith because of the strength the Creator gives them.

Zionism is a foreign growth in the body of the Jewish People. The end will be that it will rid itself of this foreign growth and remain pure.

Zionism has overcome the Jewish people by force, fraud and terror, but none of this will help them because the truth will always remain with the help of the Creator.

Zionism will not replace the Jewish People. The Jewish People will remain strong in their faith and the Zionist State will cease to exist.

It is therefore, our demand that the State that calls itself ISRAEL, should cease to exist. Since this won't be done, we demand that they cease to call themselves "Israel", because their entire being is in complete opposition to the true People of Israel. The true People of Israel deny them permission to call themselves by that name. The Zionist leaders have no right to set themselves up as the representatives and spokesmen of the true People of ISRAEL.

Since we know they will not fulfill this demand either we feel that at least we cry out the truth. The truth will always remain the truth. By no means or force can the truth be changed. Even if all the world would say that one and one is three, the truth will remain that one and one is two.

Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name "ISRAEL" by that State is a complete falsification. The People of Israel have nothing to do with that State. Zionism and its State have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL.

 

Perhaps, then, you might attempt to refute the contents of the sourced and well rounded article. Somehow, I don't think you will. Good day to you too.

 

You're right, I wont, and thank you.

 

Are you trying to say that if a person or organization shoots at a group of people and misses the government need not feel they are required to intervene?

 

Wouldn't that depend if the government was the occupying power of those doing the shooting? Since Israel is the occupying power of the Gaza Strip it can't simultaneously deny Gazans the right to self-government and declare war upon them. Israel alone has the power to end the violence from Gaza by ending its occupation of Palestine.

 

That's like saying the U.S. alone has the power to end the violence of it's war on cocaine dealers, by ending it's laws against cocaine.




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I suppose the level of violence generated by cocaine sales would decrease if it was available over the counter at your local Kwik Trip; however, the point I was trying to make is simply that the rocket attacks emerging from a territory under Israel's jurisdictional control means Israel must defend itself in accordance with occupation law and not the laws of war that govern hostilities between two sovereign states. That would mean no artillery shelling of urban neighborhoods, among other limitations.

 

It might be better if Israel removed all unauthorized buildings from Gaza and arrested or deported anyone who did not acknowledge Israel as the legal authority in Gaza.

But when the number of people disputing that claim is large enough, it's less about policing a territory which you control than repelling an military invasion of that territory. And repelling a military invasion, requires military action. The U.S. would shell Texas if an invading army came into it.




​

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "legal authority of Gaza?"
Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza since 1967.
While it has the right to protect Israelis from attacks from Gaza, as the occupying power Israel also has a duty to maintain "normal life" within the territory it occupies.
Israel stands this duty on its head by inflicting as much collective punishment as it can upon the civilian population of Gaza, and it does this for the purpose of driving as many Gazans from their land as possible so that Jews from Israel can take their place; it's called Zionism.
Your Texas analogy only makes sense if Egypt or some other sovereign state invades Gaza.
Since Israel is the occupying power in Gaza it must function under a different set of international laws than if it were contesting with another sovereign state for control of Gaza.

 

Yes, by apprehending criminals who attack and terrorize. You just legitimized the recent Israeli actions in Gaza.

 

Do you remember how it turned out for Samson in Gaza?
That is exactly where Israel is heading today with your next war always just around the closest corner.

"Israel cannot 'destroy' Hamas, as our semi-fascist politicians (in the government, too) loudly demand. Nor do they really want to. If Hamas is &#8220;destroyed&#8221;, Gaza would have to be turned over to the Palestinian Authority (viz. Fatah).

"That would mean the re-unification of the West Bank and Gaza, after all the long-lasting and successful Israeli efforts to divide them.

"No good.

"If Hamas remains, Israel cannot allow the 'terror-organization' to prosper. Relaxation of the blockade will only be limited, if that. The population will embrace Hamas even more, dreaming of revenge for the terrible devastation caused by Israel during this war.

"The next war will be just around the corner &#8211; as almost all Israelis believe anyhow.

"In the end, we shall be where we were before."

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/15/eyeless-in-gaza-2/

 

The post is extremely clear. I suggest comprehension classes.