Thanks to Cliven Bundy he has exposed the bigger picture

Wrong. I doubt anything in Bundy's cattle operation would change one whit if all federal presence and funds were removed from the land in question.

 

You're changing the subject because you know you're wrong.

Says the one who pays close attention to every post I make. LOL

 

If people like Bundy are cash poor, he should be thanking the American taxpayer and the federal government then for at least giving him the means to make a living and put food on the table on BLM land. Can you imagine if he owned that BLM land instead and had to pay property taxes? He'd be hard pressed to even raise his own cattle unless he had wealth to begin with.

 

Yea, when the BLM takes up those watering tanks they own and they sell Bundy their land he probably can't afford while having to pay property taxes if he's lucky enough to buy the land, I'm sure nothing will change. Gotta love the logic from the right. Makes for a great laugh, that's for sure.

 

It is public land, administered by the BLM. The arrangement of running ranch cattle on public land was/is considered mutually beneficial, and that is why it was/is encouraged. I live where it is still encouraged and in places the gov't pays shepherds to keep stock on land as the value of their contribution to the ecology is recognized.

"Reversing Desertification with Livestock - Our World". - http://ourworld.unu.edu/en/reversing-desertification-with-livestock

The land is also shared land. Hunters, campers etc. are free to make use of the land as well (and they aren't asked to pay property taxes on it either).

Since the contract dispute began between the BLM and Bundy the maintenance of the land, as far as the cattle have gone - the water tanks etc. - have been self purchased and managed.

My family raised cattle and we didn't have shoes to go to school in so I don't follow that logic at all. Please explain what you consider 'wealth'? Is the ability to build a home on purchased land wealth to you?

 

You're avoiding the main crust of the issue. How did your family acquire the land, and all the infrastructure necessary to raise cattle? I can see how those can start small on cattle they already own on land they already own with infrastructure already in place. But for someone to start fresh with having to buy land, build fences, build watering ponds or troughs, purchasing cattle trailers, and buying the cattle with little to no money is a long road going no where for a very long time if someone like that expects to make money.

The issue with Bundy and the arrangements he has or anyone else has with BLM land has never been in question. The issue is with the fees he owes to make it mutually beneficial for all. Right now that isn't happening with him. Hunters like you mentioned, also pay a fee when they purchase a license, which isn't free like you say.

Not all these arrangements turn out mutually beneficial. In my link I posted, federal maintenance of logging roads for trucks to transport timber back and forth on federal lands for private timber companies to profit, usually comes out to be a loss for the federal government and the taxpayer. Which ultimately means that the consumer pays for that timber twice. So, it often times is not mutually beneficial while the tax payer eats the extra cost.

 

You are asking questions beyond the capability of BLM fan boys to answer. They don't know anything other than they hate Cliven Bundy, just like they are instructed to do.

You'll NEVER, repeat never, get them to discuss the only issue in this entire matter that has any validity or practical application at all in the lives of average American citizens: The abuse of power and authority by Big Government.

Grazing cattle on some patch of wilderness in the middle of nowhere, Bundy's racist views, desert tortoises, whether Cliven Bundy likes the government or not, fees owed to a billion dollar per year bureaucracy....all of this is extemporaneous bull (*)(*)(*)(*) compared to the shriveling
constitutionally guaranteed civil rights of America's citizens.
Don't let the liars and propagandists hijack this issue. The rights you save may be your own.

 

The right wingers are desperate and they're just making themselves look like fools.

C'mon right wingers...... even your lawmakers are distancing themselves from this toothless ignorant freeloading welfare deadbeat Bundy. Fox Propaganda is too.

Wipe the egg off your faces and find a different cause to rally around. This one is an epic fail.

 

It is called hard work and often bartering/trading work for items, and it is exactly as I said, they don't make money and are cash poor. Their asset value does increase, as it should with hard work, but there is not cash money in hand for a long time. I've lived it. That is why I asked the question 'why the assumption of wealth".

I understood that this was the central question. He, and supportive ranchers, don't believe the BLM have managed the land as per the original agreements and therefore they believe the BLM is at fault for breaking contract and are not owed.

The fees he owes have not yet been quantified, and are what is in dispute.

Do all people that camp, hike or traverse on public land in the USA pay fees? I live in Northern Alberta, Canada. We don't pay fees to use public land here (we also still have homestead land available). We do pay a hunting license if we hunt (and are not native).

I believe the BLM has added no value to those that are grazing cattle, but are usurping the value the grazing cattle have given to the land, personally. That is evidenced by the fact that 52 ranchers have pulled out in Clark county, leaving Bundy the last one there.

Again, however, my question was about the assumption of wealth that he had, and was a side question to the larger issue of, how, in any way, any single person can justify the abuse of power that was obviously used by the BLM against this man.

He could be my worst enemy and I would/could not condone the abuse of power displayed.

 

I think my horse sense is failing me. I'm still arguing with these guys from the clown car. I think I will have to see "someone" to correct this problem I have.

 

Much of it in Nevada is part of DoD and used by the Air Force
and to some extent the Navy.

 

It's also called not answering my question. But let me guess; the land you worked your butt off was inherited down through your family. And let me guess; so was much of the infrastructure? Maybe even your own house. Nice foundation for raising cattle for a profit wouldn't you say?

Bundy lost his battle in court. and if what you say were true why have all the others paid their fees. You're making this up as you go. Bundy has no case because he lost. It's that simple.

According to the federal government his fees have been quantified just nicely to the tune of a million bucks.

That's not what you said. You said hunters.

Different country, different rules. There is nothing to compare here.

Personally, your analogy of that is worth squat seeing that the price for grazing land has only gone up 12 cents in the last few decades. If you had bothered to watch the video I linked you would see that the rancher is getting a heck of a deal. Do the research.

We'll, if you do some research like I suggested, you would see that instead of only charging an extra 12 cents to ranchers in the last few decades, you will understand from my link, that the BLM should be charging nine bucks an acre, adjusting for inflation. These guys are getting off almost for free by using these lands. You'll have to do a better job convincing me there is an abuse of power.

 

Your question was "How did your family acquire the land, and all the infrastructure necessary to raise cattle?"

My answer is they acquired it through hard work for money. They then used that money to purchase the land and worked and bartered and exchanged and traded for all the rest.

So the government courts have decided that the government is right and he's wrong. Should we be shocked? It is not that simple or he would not have the support that he does.

The reading I've done on the legalities here point out that the issue is indeed very complicated. This is from a legal scholar in discussion on this topic.

"The Supremacy clause of Article VI clause 2 SUPERSEDES the Nevada State Constitution and therefore the Federal Government is NOT allowed to own ANYTHING in any State other than the limited items listed under Article I Section 8 clause 17.

Supremacy clause; Article VI clause 2:

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

Article I Section 8 clause 17: Provides for the LIMITS granted to our elected Republican and Democrat USURPERS in terms of what the Federal Government can "own" inside of a "State":

"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings"

I understand as well that the Supreme Court has upheld the right of all western states to have all the land returned to them under the “equal footing” doctrine.

The "million dollars" owed has been challenged by Nevada Assemblywoman Michele Fiore. She noted, on a video statement, that it has yet to be clarified even after she has asked for a rundown on how it was determined. She also said this.

. . . "These men and woman are Americans attacking Americans. I’m speechless. If you saw the number of police agencies united, I’d hope you’d be curious. We are talking about dozens of our finest SWAT members from Metro, Metro black & white cars, EMT, fire rescue trucks, detention buses (a.k.a. Paddy wagons), over 50 Ranger and BLM vehicles, numerous highway patrol vehicles, and a Black Hawk Helicopter on the Moapa airfield, just to name a few. We watched the Waco Massacre and Ruby Ridge; was the BLM preparing for a “Bunkerville Slaughter”? I believe in my heart because of these last two disasters, Americans from all over our country traveled from afar to stand with the Bundys and let our government know enough is enough. I’m proud to stand with my fellow Americans.

The numbers do not calculate. The federal government had the authority and an open checkbook to spend 10 million dollars or more for a maximum return of $200,000. Here’s how I calculate that number: the BLM might collect maybe 400 heads of cattle, taking into account the number of cattle they would kill while rounding them up. From the round up, the cattle would go to auction. How much do you think you’ll pay for a half-dead, beat up cow? Let’s say they were able to successful auction off 400 cows for $500.00 each (I’m being very very generous). The brainiac head of BLM authorized 10 million dollars or more to maybe recoup $200,000. Really? As a CEO I’d fire that decision-maker immediately. In their minds, maybe it’s worth getting rid of the cows, or just killing them, so the cows won’t destroy equipment for a project they might want to implement." . . .

http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/04/20/nevada-assemblywoman-exposes-truth-bundyblm-showdown/

. . . and I accepted that your hunters likely have to pay a license. I asked if all people, hiking, camping etc., pay fees when they use public land. I was in Nevada hiking last year and I was not asked to pay a fee to do so, so I have a feeling most don't.

I watched the video and came to different conclusions than you did.

Even if I had come to a similar conclusion, that conclusion would not justify the actions taken by the BLM in this case.

 

It's your thoughtful, caring and generous nature to try and educate these characters. Unfortunately some can't be educated. They're either trainable or a lost cause.

Trying to get through to some of these petty, frightened and petulant characters can test one's patience. Unfortunately I don't have much when it comes to these people. Their ODD often wins.

 

Yes, there certainly has been some illumination upon what the Senate Majority Leader's true perspective is:



Similar to George W. Bush suggesting the best form of government is a dictatorship, Senator Reid's declaration deserves the April Fool idiocy award for the year 2014.

 

Taxcutter says:
About a third of it is the Nellis AFB range (the Navy also uses the highly instrumented practice range for its "Top Gun" training) and the Nevada Test Site which includes the Yucca Mountain Repository, Area 51, and all the old underground nuclear test sites. Some of it is in National Forest and a couple of "National Monuments" (whatever those are). The rest is unassigned BLM land.

Uncle Sugar should keep Nellis and the Test Site and deed the rest to the State of Nevada. Call it compensation for opening Yucca Mountain for operation.

 

Says the one who wants to make Bundy's racism the issue. What does that have to do with grazing cattle and the BLM? Nothing?

Yes....nothing.

I pay attention to every post from anyone responding to something I've posted....no matter how asinine and ignorant it is.

You have a very high opinion of the interest in your posts but I suppose at least one person should.

 

National Monuments are those things that are important to our history. Still doesn't change your welfare cowboy is being disowned by those on the right who have a interest in being in politics.

 

Still more derailing with a touch of nastiness added. You don't work or play well with others.

But you still really care what I have to say. And stop changing the subject.

 

Such irony!

Stop pretending that I am.

 

Don't know which is more numerous in your posts, idiot smilicons or out and out raw harebrained suppositions and strawmen. Government doesn't somehow "create water" on land merely by adding water tanks. That land would be dirt cheap per acre if the fed sold it to boot.

And as an aside on the racism BS, who knows what kind of stuff will come out of some old dude's mouth about anything? It's the measure of a man's actions and plain attitudes rather than words he strings together in front of a camera that matter anyway. It took me about 2 seconds to determine "this guy isn't the brightest bulb and certainly isn't a practiced speaker." Bundy is not like us, swift keyboard jockeys who can find precision and express thoughts quickly. I could see my grandfather saying some of the same things and having some of the same misperceptions, and the man didn't have a racist bone in his body, worked shoulder to shoulder with black men every day of his life, went to their hospital beds and funerals, they to his.

It annoys the f out of me that some slick career politician and plagiarist like Joe Biden has been saying the same kinds of faux pas his whole career and gets a complete pass, yet this ignorant old half-senile provincial farmer is somehow the equivalent of the KKK to the media now. Left = utter hypocrisy.

 

I guess idiot smilicons, LOL!

 

Bundy is the republicans new Joe Sixpack ... lol

 

Can we say personal attacks here? Yes we can.

 

Exactly, so why is Bundy changing the narrative to race? No one had any interest in race until Bundy made race his interest and everyone else's. After all, isn't he the hero everyone is paying attention to? Lol! The guy is a total joke. You have this thing all backwards. The left wants to talk about the debt he owes to us all and all Bundy wants to talk about is race.