I TOLD you what it is - right there in my post! Are you trying to be funny? It doesn't support anything you've ever said on this topic. The status of an embryo is not binary - dead or alive. It's status wrt being a functioning human being is a spectrum from "just fine" to "it's going to kill you" to "it may live for a short time with significant painful deficits" to anything else. The same is true for the woman, with possibilities both positive and negative base on the health of the woman, too. YOUR position is that the government should decide all these issues for the woman. Yet, you don't appear to have a CLUE concerning what the actual questions are. We have OSHA. Maybe you want PSHA - Pregnancy Safety and Health Administration. Maybe they can control a woman's diet, exercise, and other of the many elements that are known to improve the likelihood of a successful gestation.
No you didn't. You said what it's not. And what you said it is not is exactly what it is. You also said it's potential. Which isn't exactly correct. It has potential. No I'm trying to illustrate how insane you sound. You are insisting that a thing created by only humans using only human material that 100% of all humans that ever existed and ever will exist is not human. You might at well be telling me it's a toaster. disagree. You said it has potential that's my argument completely. Use that as a means to justify extinguishing it which doesn't follow. see this is the insanity that I'm talking about something made of biological material that grows and goes through biological processes fits the entire definition of life or alive that it possibly can and you say it doesn't. So you you indeed are arguing that it is a toaster or something of that nature. Again this is funny because it comes off as reductive but it's actually precisely what you said. this is a dishonest plea you are making here and I'm only going to address it to illustrate the dishonesty. If we were talking about abortion only allowed in the cases where is not viable, (wouldn't need abortion in this case the pregnancy will likely miscarry) the infant would be severely disabled or the mother would be serious risk of death. Your argument would be valid and honest but that's not what you're arguing for. You're arguing for any woman can get an abortion at any time she wants just because. You don't need to play these what if games to try and elicit some sympathy from me because it comes off to me is sniveling and dishonest. just like it's my position that the government should decide that you're not free to kill your 3-month-old baby. I'm not a complete anarchist so don't leave her under the assumption that I am cuz I'm just going to embarrass you when you point out that I'm not. mindless ad hominem is not valid argument. that is a pretty idiotic statement. I don't think we need CSHA to make it illegal to murder 4-year-olds. This isn't about control it's about the value of life. You create this red herring to distract from the argument and I'm not taking the bait.
You say it's not a potential. Then, you say that is YOUR argument "completely". YOU are playing games! Please continue without playing games. Once again; - yes, it is a potential. - no, it does NOT necessarily go through the processes that would lead it to being a person. No, I'm arguing that the issues of viability, risk, state of the fetus, state of the mother are all issues where the decision needs to be made by the woman with the advice of her doctor or others that she wants to hear advice from. Maybe she wants advice from her husband. Maybe she wants to consult clergy. But, SHE is the one who has the full right of making the decisions that she feels needs to be made. There are women who choose to die to give birth, for example. That doesn't get to be the government's choice. I don't care what you are or aren't. And, your comments about babies is just further evidence that you don't have the honesty to actually address the issue.
right it's not a potential that doesn't make sense. It has potential. Potential is a characteristic of it not a synonym for it broken English. It is not a potential it is a fetus or a fertilized egg. It has potential. Potential is a characteristic not an object. still not a justification for terminating it. then don't bring up the condition of the mother or the potential threats to her life. If it's between a doctor and the mother then it's not for you to discuss. I wouldn't have said this if you didn't bring it up. Those arguments are crutch of the pro abortion types. Further if this is a right as you assert where is it enumerated? that statement doesn't make sense giving birth does not equal death. then don't use red herrings. I can't honestly address the issue and your opinion. This is the equivalent of a loaded question. It is a logic trap people with poor logic use those. I have to accept that it's not a human in order to talk to you about that I reject that premise. And you just go on pretending like that didn't happen. So it seems rather hypocritical to tell me I'm being dishonest.
No, that's the kind of situation that these laws against women absolutely DO affect, and thus they form a significant issue. Not all rights are explicitly enumerated. Think before typing, please. Yes, this topic is not about babies. Children are persons under the constitution, and are thus not part of this issue. Scrambling in issues of months old babies is not an honest approach to this topic. And, your comments about me killing babies just shows the depth of your inability to pretend to be an adult.
Laws against women? What in earth are you talking about? Laws against murdering the unborn don't make it illegal to be a woman. That's the most ignorant thing you have said to date. so how are these rights determined? How are they recognized? advice you should take. Right it's about toasters. Once again I reject your ideology that an unborn child is a toaster. So there is no scrambling and you're dishonesty is the only dishonesty here. you insult because you flunked at arguing. I reject your genocidal ideology. You will flunk until you understand that.
I haven't berated you about anything where you were honest. And, I'm not asking you to change ideology. I DO want people to understand this issue better, because there is a desire by many to boil it down to cases that are going to be wonderful, loving success stories, to somehow think it's ok to use the law to impose their own religious views on others, to demand that a man that may have been involved gets equal decision making authority over the woman, or to take some of the other various approaches that they think justify denying women the rights of personal healthcare decision making. However, that's just not the truth of the way life works. Women do have rights over their own bodies. And, using government and their enforcement bodies to take away that right is NOT benign and it is NOT OK.
Calling me dishonest because I don't adhere to your ideology is berating me. Right, you are pretending like yours is really. It is not. My view isn't religious. I understand it just fine. This isn't a health decision. There is no health issue that abortion is a cure or treatment for. This is your ideology. You want people to accept it. You call that understanding the issue because you haven't thought about this from the other side. In order to help people understand and I do believe that you do, you have to first understand them. You haven't made that effort. You are just barking dogma at me and demanding I accept it. Then ridiculing me for resisting. You may not be aware of this but that is how you are coming off. I disagree with you. A fetus is a baby a human being. No amount of you telling me it isn't will ever get me to think otherwise. the baby isn't their own body. Nobody should ever have rights over someone else's body.
I suggested your problem with honesty when you had issues with honesty. You seem to think that it's legitimate argument to talk about me in conjunction with killing young children. And, THAT should get you banned from this board.
Now this is not how you get people to understand believe me in your field argument on others is petty and immature. I guess I was wrong when I said I believe you want people to understand. You really don't. What you're doing here is poisoning the well. I have a problem everyone else has a problem because you can't reach your goal. You're never going to achieve anything if you blame your problems on other people.
Polydectes said: ↑ What? I don't I just don't think someone has the right to autonomy over someone else's body"""" I responded : So a fetus can't have """"the right to autonomy over someone else's body"""" ? Correct? Did you not post :"" I just don't think someone has the right to autonomy over someone else's body"""" ? YES, you did....so the fetus should be included in those who don't have "" the right to autonomy over someone else's body"" Neither did that. I am sorry you don't understand your own statement, " I just don't think someone has the right to autonomy over someone else's body"""" ? , ....nothing I can do about that.
Seriously?? You think you can suggest I'd kill young children? And, then you think I should try to explain something to you??? LOL!
Polydectes said: ↑ What? I don't I just don't think someone has the right to autonomy over someone else's body"""" I responded : So a fetus can't have """"the right to autonomy over someone else's body"""" ? Correct? Did you not post :"" I just don't think someone has the right to autonomy over someone else's body"""" ? YES, you did....so the fetus should be included in those who don't have "" the right to autonomy over someone else's body"" Neither did that. I am sorry you don't understand your own statement, " I just don't think someone has the right to autonomy over someone else's body"""" ? , ....nothing I can do about that. ...or don't want to understand ???....it's a question about YOUR statement: Me :""so the fetus should be included in those who don't have "" the right to autonomy over someone else's body""? You said ""I just don't think someone has the right to autonomy over someone else's body"" Is a FETUS included in your "someone" in that statement? Very simple, very straightforward.... but it blows your argument so keep evading and dancing around it
I could go hyperbolic here but I'm not maybe I'm foolish to think that you are honest when you said you wanted people to understand No, you think that or you're lying. You said you wanted people to understand the argument. I took you at your word once already. I guess that was foolish of me.
no it's not. Did you specifically see me state that a fetus should have autonomy over a woman's body,? If so quote those exact words I allegedly said and tell me what post number they're in. If you can't which I already know you can't because I didn't say that, then you twisting this meaning out of my words is a straw man
Dude!! Instead of asking a question, you started talking about me killing CHILDREN. Please stop responding to my posts.
if you want to be butt hurt about hyperball then wallowing your own self pity I'm not sorry and I won't apologize. Now if you want to let go of your poor wittle hurt fee fees Then stop making them.
Alright. So, the fetus has rights. OK? A woman is very early on in her pregnancy and does not yet know she is pregnant, she goes to work an bumps her belly. The fetus dies. Another woman does not know she is pregnant yet either. As usual she is having five cups of coffee a day to go through her workday. The fetus dies. Do we charge them with manslaughter?
I wouldn't go that far. Just that it has value. Not sure how that's anything like intentionally terminating it No.
Value to whom? If it has rights which calling it human implies, unintentionally killing it is a crime too. So, what is the answer? So, is it a human with full rights or not?
No, and I never claimed you did but I can see your desperation at being caught out YOU posted : ""Polydectes said: ↑ What? I don't I just don't think someone has the right to autonomy over someone else's body"""" And I asked you a question ...does that "someone" include fetuses ?? Now you are denying you posted something ??
