The Truth About Palestine and Israel

Interesting perspective.

I think he speaks some uncomfortable truths about zionism but leaves out a whole bunch of truths about events of the period.

I found his "rabbi control" thru murder and thuggery to be outrageous and salacious distortions and to a large extent anecdotal generalizations.

That he dismisses the civil war between the arabs and jews as not much more of a genocidal massacre of innocent unarmed civilians under Plan Dalet and not a real war with real armies is fantasy.


OTOH, I do agree that Jewish ultra orthodoxy is a batcrap crazy as Islamism and other forms of fanaticism. I do not agree with his characterization of the underlying motivations of Zionism, but its objectives and the attitudes of many of its champions (as despicable as some may have been) are pretty damn clear.

An articulate presenter but content wise I'm afraid a tad too facile.

 

On these, I'd have to ask you for the proof. I understand you disagree, but why? Because you believe it to be false, cannot come to believe it is true, or know it to be false? I'm completely fine with it if it's true, but I'd have to see the facts. Keep in mind that the Israeli government has lied about much of it's own history- lies that have been countered by their own records dug up by Israeli journalists who also disagree with the treatment of Palestinians.

 

I don't think I will give it the time.

Here is the thing, the entire video starts with a conclusion and then distorts the evidence to fit that vision.

For example he quotes fringe rabbis as if that was common belief among Jews. He is an angry bigot.

 

No facts to counter....

I understand, though.

 

Are you familiar with the anecdotal generalization technique? I do not dispute that this rabbi or that rabbi made some hateful and idiotic statements but I do dispute his assumption that their comments/actions represent what was going on in Russia. ESPECIALLY since the Russian czarist regime was serious anti-Semitic. He frequently uses this technique with a number of his cherry picked quotations.

His facile glossing over of the treatment of jews in Europe and its impact on some of the more outspoken clerics is again unrepresentative of mainstream jewish thought.

His assumptions of motivations for Zionists and many of his "anecdotal quotations" are exactly that. He uses assumption, implications and "connecting the dots" to buttress his points.


As to Israeli history, of course Israel has its own narrative replete with all kinds of favorable spin. Just like the Palestinian/Arabs and everyone else for that matter, do. Neither is 100% correct and neither is 100% wrong.

For example, Deir Yassin was a massacre, but that wasn't planned and it wasn't as horrific as the arab histories would have the world believe. Official Israeli history denied it for decades, but with the advent of the new historians, that narrative changed.

For decades the official Israeli position was that the arabs voluntarily left, while the arabs claimed they were all ethnically cleansed by force. Yet another example that their respective histories are clouded by propaganda. The facts are that some Palestinians were directly forced out by the Israelis, but many fled to get the hell out of the firing line. There was afterall a rather fierce war going on where the arabs were intent on pushing the jews into the sea and erasing the new established Israel from history, while the Jews were attempting to consolidate their holdings, given the idiocy of the partition plan, gain Jerusalem and defend themselves from FIVE arab armies.

The OP wasn't spouting the truth about the situation. He was at best opining, and using cherry picked facts to support his assumptions.

If you really want to understand and appreciate the history of both the Zionist movement (not all peaches and cream by any means) and the plight of jews in 19th century Europe, then I suggest you do some of your own research. There's plenty of academic sources available on line or at the library.

 

There are over 190 members of the United Nations and they have all signed the UN documents that state that you are absolutely wrong about your notion of some sort of open competition for land.

Beyond that, international law states that people own their property regardless of border changes, and that ethnic cleansing is a crime. It also states that people who are displaced by war have a right of return. Yet, Israel doesn't even allow all its own Arab citizens who are living in Israel today to have their property back.

Their are very serious crimes being committed by Israel today.

That is causing serious problems - and not just for Palestinians and Israelis. The head of Mossad has stated that Israeli policy is a national security problem for the USA.

 

LOL the UN... half of those 190 members are authoritarian dictatorship who don't follow any UN "international laws" or give any human right to their population.

And once again, there are no international laws, only treaties and conventions and those are only respected if they are compatible with each nations goal.
There are serious crime being commited by many countries around the world yet you only complains about Israel, why is that?
You don't complain about Tibet where people and a whole culture is being destroyed. You don't complaint about Burma treatment of it's Rohingya Muslims minority which are denied citizenship in their own country and are left stranded on boat in the indian ocean because none of the south asian countries accept refugees. You don't complaint about the australian aborigen cause either... In all of those case the situation is way worst than what the Palestinian are living. All that is required of the palestinian to improve their situation and have their own country is a peace treaty in which they recognize Israel right to exist and the end of hostility against it. That option isn't available to those other case I wrote about.

I could write about another 50 cases at least where people are in a more desperate situation than the palestinian, yet you ONLY complain about Israel... I wonder why, well not really. I know why, you know why but your too ashame to come out and say it.

 

No facts, Jonsa. Just your own opinions knocking up against what you claim are the opinions of the man in the video.

Deir Yassin...how do you know it wasn't planned or not? Israel told you so? From what I have heard, the forced eviction of the Palestinian's from the land was the plan. THE...PLAN. The war is the cover. Probably true because Deir Yassin wasn't the only massacre and certainly wasn;t the only eviction and even if it was due to the stresses of war as people have been saying, why were they not allowed to return afterwards. That too has a wealth of excuses and apologists- just like people who once defended that there was no Deir Yassin massacre had a bunch of "facts" and information and called it a conspiracy theory of some sort. I suppose it all comes down to where you get your information and at what point in time you got it, but I do accept your criticism that this is only this guys opinion as I really don't have any real way of checking on the validity of this story and did not offer it as fact. I was expecting a more fact-based rebuttal though...

I've learned, just because something appears "a little more true" it doesn't mean it's the complete truth.

 

Yeah, the UN is a joke judging by their track record. Most of the other nations outside of the main powers do not have significant power to do anything in the UN, and as was clearly shown by the US, can be easily ignored. The UN was created by the same people who sat at a table and liberally carved up the world post WW2 for themselves- although this time it was the US at the helm and not Britain. WW2 was not a war of justice, it was a war between Empires. The result of WW2 was the ironic end of both those empires and the rise of the US. And the UN was created as the Court of the World with the US in charge, but immune to any laws or prosecution for which it would proecute others for. It is a massive, massive joke. That's likely one of the reasons why "they" hate us.

 

This is why it should be scrapped just like the League of Nations was. Each country already have ambassadors and other venue to deal with each other. The UN is largely redundant and quite inefective since it can't do (*)(*)(*)(*) when someone doesn't follow the rules and no one will ever put their country's interest bellow those of the UN.

 

Actually.. it was more like 600,000 Arab Jews left Arab countries ... dribbling out in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973... and for that they can thank the European Zionists.

 

My rather more broadly informed opinions, it seems.

There is now a number of academics (historians) who have written about Deir Yassin, and have described in detail what transpired, including both documents, participant and eye witness accounts from both sides.

here's a report from the head of the IRC:

http://www.israel-palestina.info/deir-yassin-the-red-cross-report/

Like all wars, brutality knows no sides. Are you familiar with the concept of "tit for tat"? the history of the conflict is chockablock full of such incidents on both sides.

Excellent, so you are not adamantly defending his opinions or the techniques he employs to buttress said opinions.

 

Thanks for this retort.
This fellow without exaggeration has the vilest pretentious ideas than any Arab or pro Arab... I do not know who this fellow is... but not a Jew for sure.

 

Yes, there are nations worse than Israel. But, which of our allies is worse than Israel? UK? Germany? Japan? Australia? France?

Even the head of Mossad notes that Israeli foreign policy is a national security problem for the US. Which of our other allies is a national security problem for America?

There are situations in the world that America would like to see improve - you note that there are a number of serious problems going on. But, we support Israel. How are we supposed to push for human rights, representation, democracy, etc., while our major ME ally is carrying out an ethnic cleansing program? When we sit down with China, what do we say about Tibet when our own ally is driving Palestinians from their property, stealing their water rights, destroying their economy, bombing and bulldozing their religious buildings, denying them travel, turning away aid boats, shooting at fishermen who dare to fish Gaza's waters, and stealing their fossil fuel resources while denying them power? If you want me to worry about Tibet, doesn't that start with getting our own house in order?

In fact, the very foundation of your plea is to recognize that there are worse offenders on earth. So, you really are begging me to consider Israel as the lesser among criminals. Doesn't that embarrass you at all?

 

You have destroyed the narrative, unsubstantiated as it is by the fact that you qualified
the 'Arabs' as Palestinians (above)... 'Palestinian' was a nomenclature opted by Arafat at the behest of Abdel Nasser in 1964, and Deir Yasin case happened in 1948.

You had the temerity to transpose events of 1948 to realities of 1964 which means a manufactured 16 year gap.

 

The US is "in charge" and "immune" comes from the size of our economy to some extent and to a large extent to the size of our military and our willingness to go to war. Our position in the UN isn't more significant than others who have veto power.

In that respect, the UN is showing age, as veto power was handed out post WWII, and undoubtedly not with respect to what would be an equitable distribution today. In fact, perhaps there should be no veto power at all.

But, the fact that smaller nations have somewhat less influence isn't likely to change. Disbanding the UN isn't going to give smaller nations more influence. And, small nations working together is not blocked by the UN. If a small nation is being transgressed, the UN is certainly not an impediment to that nation's efforts to get relief - it is another opportunity.

For example, let's take Palestine, a nation under occupation with serious humanitarian crime taking place for years. Saying they can form alliances with other small nations is ludicrous. They will not survive without support significant enough to outweigh those who are intent on continuing the ethnic cleansing that is in progress. Without US championship, the UN is the only likely source of mitigation that exists today. Regardless of your opinion of this particular conflict, this IS an example of the problems faced by a small nation.

 

Saudi Arabia, UAE, Turkey, Australia, New Zealand... Those are worst than Israel for starters, I could name others as well.

Your house doesn't include Israel btw. In fact the USA was pretty much hand off when it came to Israel up until the late 60's. You don't have to say a bloody thing about Israel to the chinese since Israel isn't the USA and you don't have a say in their internal business, just as you don't have a say in the KSA internal business. Israel isn't the 51st state. If China as a beef with Israel, then they can go and deal with it themselves they don't have to even speak to you about it.

As for your last line in your post. Don't make me laugh. Let me rephrase my point: EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH IS EQUALLY CRIMINAL SINCE ALL COUTRY ON EARTH WERE CREATED THROUGH ETHNIC CLEANSING AND GENOCIDE OF THE PREVIOUS INHABITANT! Every borders are the result of land grabbing conflict. Israel isn't anymore guilty than the rest and shouldn't be targeted any more than the other because you feel some innocent sympathy toward the oppressedd flavor of the month.

The Palestinian have a way to end their problem that doesn't necessitate bloodshed. The Tibetan, the Aborigen and many other don't, but I guess they're not your oppressed flavor of the month...

 

I was RESPONDING to the content of the OP video.

Palestinians refers to those arabs that originally living in the partition sectors allocated as arab.

As to referring to them as Palestinians, I suppose your entire government and media in Israel destroy their own narratives by referring to those people in the OTs as "Palestinian". Before you go chastising me for using a globally acceptable (INCLUDING ISRAEL) label, perhaps you should be jumping up and down in front of the Knesset.

 

Your first paragraph is nonsense.

China points out that we support Israel, and that our objections to Tibet are thus hypocritical.

Past genocide doesn't justify Israel's on-going ethnic cleansing. By signing the UN treaty, Israel states that it will not acquire land through theft. In fact, even with border changes, property rights remain with the individual.

Your "innocent sympathy toward the oppressed flavor of the month" is supremely disgusting. One would think that Israel would have more respect for humanitarian crimes such as ethnic cleansing.

The individuals comprising the current Netanyahu cabinet deny any possibility of a two state solution. And, Netanyahu has made the same statement. Even when he claimed to back off that, he promised there would be no such resolution during his tenure.

So, claiming that Palestine has a clear avenue for resolution is a blatant lie.

 

Well, I think the UN can do things, it's just that it doesn't do things that aren't in the interests of the main nations that control it. Also, only some countries have the ability to deal with other countries and only if that country is weaker than it. The UN can't and won't do anything about powerful countries or countries of significance because it's a political entity- as much marred by politics and corruption as our own government.

The problem is that people set up these organizations and try to imbue them with a sense of greater righteousness, but their just the same old white-wigs of world imperialism.

You speak of war as if there is some law mandating a "tit-for-tat"- as if each party that is involved in a war is equally responsible for it. I don't believe that at all and I certainly don't think that was the case.

But here we are again, giving our opinions. I suppose it is your opinion that your opinions are more fact based. The IRC does not equal Truth. I'd have to say they have their "official notes" as another party would have their "official notes" and it's hard to say whether their reports were sanitized before they were passed along. I understand your position though, I'm just being open minded about it. Just so you know, a number of Israeli-born scholars- like Ilan Pappe- have also stated that Deir Yassin was no accident and the war was not, as you put it, a "tit-for-tat" war.

Still...not very much information though. I understand if you think this is completely fallacious (i know you didn't say that) and I only stated it as an opinion meant to generate a factual debate, but it needs specific facts. There were many in that video- some of which are indeed historically accurate. I knew some people would instinctively blow it off and hand me a bunch of ethereal counter-arguments (not to say that this was you) but I was hoping that if someone did disagree with it, they would do so because they know for a fact that it was wrong and they would readily have those facts in mind to list because they know them already and didn't have to google for tid-bits of testimony.

 

The US has been providing aid to Israel since 1948... At first it was just food aid, but it has always been more aid for the smallest population and the longest US aid recipient in history.. and Israel has betrayed every single US president since Eisenhower.

 

Wwow, so much nonsense... Where to begin.

What china points out is irrelevant. You are not your brother keeper and Israel is an independent country. You can tell China to (*)(*)(*)(*) off about Israel and deal with their situation in Tibet.

Second, nobody care about the UN and never did. It's a discussion forum nothing more. None of their resolution mean (*)(*)(*)(*) if nobody is there to implement them. It's also totally laughable to think any nation would obey "laws" passed by an organization where more than half of those country are de facto dictature or despotic regime.

Third, I don't care about what you think is disgusting or not. I deal in reality on the ground. Palestinian population as grown and keeps growing, hence it is ridicule to pretend there is ethnic cleansing going on. There isn't mass exodus of Palestinian going on like there is in Nigeria, Syria, Sudan etc.

They don't care about a two state solution anymore because there isn't anybody interested on the palestinian side anymore either. The palestinian don't want a two state solution, they want it all. The Israeli fought and won for their piece of land and they won't give an inch to anyone without being compensated with a real peace treaty and disarmemnet of Hamas and other jihadist group.

The palestinian have a clear avenue, sue for peace not hudnah, disarm and rebuild. Something that isn't possible for the Tibetan or Australian native or the Mauri or the Rohingya Muslims... But you complain about jews... Quite telling.

 

Oh get stuff...

Israel isn't one of your possession and they are an independent country. They don't have to do what you tell them to do and they won't if it goes against their national interest, just like any of your other allies. You don't tell canada what to do, or France or the UK. Sometime we cooperate, sometime we tell you to sod off. It depends on what's in it for ourself.

Beside the US is presently giving four time the aid to Afghanistan than it is giving to Israel. So your data is out of date.
Iraq and Afghanistan is presently receiving five time the amount of military funding than what goes to Israel. A big part of it falling into Isis hand as of late. Again your data is out of date.

Even for the weapons, Israel bought their military gear from just about every one who sold it. The flew French Mirage, used British tank and fired M-16 in the past. Now the mostly use the Gallil which is an israeli modified copy of the russian AK-74.

BTW, unlike Israel where there's a free press and we get to know those thing, how about you post the bill of sales for those Saudi Abrahms tank and F-16 fighter bombers. We would like to see how much they've really payed for them and not just what they're worth. Sometime there is a big difference between the two...

 

Or, we can tell you to (*)(*)(*)(*) off about Tibet and stop your ethnic cleansing.

Your assumptions about the UN are way off. The whole idea is to get regimes, including despotic regimes, to buy into the rule of law. That is not accomplished by denying them access to the rule of law.

Population size in Palestine isn't the issue. It's the property theft and ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing doesn't imply genocide. Look at any current map of West Bank. The property theft that has occurred to date is gigantic. And, even Israel believes much of it is illegal. It's time to stop the ethnic cleansing.

Your statements about what Palestine wants are preposterous. Palestine has long committed itself to living within its borders adjacent to a permanent Israel - in peace. The IDF notes that its most important partner peace is Palestine's president.

"Sue for peace" failed. Israel demanded to continue stealing West Bank land even during negotiations.


So, you get a reprieve! I have some duties to attend.

When I come back, I will post quotes from at least 5 of Netanyahu's new cabinet members concerning the possibility of Israel agreeing to a two state solution.

You are free to retract what you have said about "all" that is required for peace with Palestine until then.

 

You can post as many bull(*)(*)(*)(*) out of context statement that you want, it won't change a bloody thing!

Ethnic cleansing by it's very definition implies that a group is being forcefully displaced from it's nation. The Palestinian population is still growing inside the border of what would be the palestinian nation if they'd accepted it, hence there isn't any ethnic cleansing. being forced to move from one city to the next isn't ethnic cleansing. It happens in just every country, ever heard of imminent domain?

You can tell me to (*)(*)(*)(*) off about tibet but then again it would only bolster my point that you're all just a bunch of hypocrite jew hater who aren't really interested in righting wrong and defending human rights, only SOME human rights, the flavor of the month kind.

And why should I retract anything? What I said is the truth! The palestinian had plenty of opportunities through the years to sign a peace treaty, they didn't. Now they're (*)(*)(*)(*)ed and they have some useful idiots going on forum posting silly rethoric which is quite laughable. Oh well, take your time going through the electronic intifada website. try to find some snippet that haven't already been posted here over the years and see where this take the palestinian cause...