Time To Scrap Affirmative Action?

Affirmative Action is also very harsh to Asian-Americans.

And the government coercion makes it wrong.

 

Just collateral damage for a greater goal....

Come on, someone on the pro-AA side say it.....
.
.

 

This is ignorant babble as the Jim Crow laws merely institutionalized invidious individual racial prejudice and discrimination that denied equality of opportunity to African-Americans in the past. The problem is and was always invidious individual racial prejudice and discrimination that denied equality of opportunity that violated the Rights of the Person. The Jim Crow laws merely reflected the invidious individual racial prejudice. The "Civil Rights" novement removed the institutionalize invidious racial prejudice of government but did virtually nothing to eliminate the invidious individual racial prejudice that denied equality of opportunity that violated the Inalienable Rights of the Person that was discriminated against.

The problem of invidious individual prejudice that denies equality of opportunity and violates the Rights of the Person still exists and it was this invidious individual racial prejudice that Affirmative Action was designed to mitigate.

Affirmative Action has always been about "a method of redressing (mitigating the effects of) discrimination" by individuals in society and until we end the invidious individual prejudice that creates the discrimination the purpose of Affirmative Action remains. Our government cannot end invidious individual prejudice but we, the American People, can and that is our mandate. End the invidious individual prejudice that results in discrimination and the reason for Affirmative Action disappears. Until that happens Affirmative Action is required.

We are "paying the price" of invidious prejudice and irnonically those responsible for the problem are the ones that don't want to pay the price for the problem they create. The answer is simple. If a person doesn't want to pay the price for Affirmative Action then stop being a sexist and a racist and work to end racism and sexisim in America today.

Ending the problem is the key to ending the program and only we, the American People, can end the problem because it is way beyond the scope of our government to deal with. Government can only mitigate the effects of the problem but it can't fix the problem that requires the mitigation.

 

There is no statistical evidence that Affirmative Action imposes any significant reverse discrimination against "whites" in America. In an anecdotal case a "white" person may be denied an opportunity but they are never subjected to continuous denial of opportunity which is the case for women and minorities based upon invidous prejudice by "whites" in our society. A minority person may benefit once but continue to suffer discrimination in all other cases whereas a "white man" might suffer a disadvantagous case once but will never face another case of disadvantagous treatment and will actually receive advantagous treatment in most cases. We can put Affirmative Action in simple mathmatical terms relative to number of cases out of 100 hypothetical cases.

White Man: (99) advantageous cases, (1) disadvantagous case.
Black Man: (1) advantagous case, (99) disadvantagous cases.

Who is really suffering from disadvantagous treatment?

 

My point is, if I end up being the ANECDOTAL case, I'm ready to go to war to burn the thing down, period! I have only one life for MYSELF, I care about MYSELF, I won't say, "Oh well, I'll agree to eat shyt, just beacuse minorities do!" The hell with that!

 

"End the invidious individual prejudice that results in discrimination and the reason for Affirmative Action disappears. Until that happens Affirmative Action is required."

Taxcutter says:
So...in a nutshell you think that Affirmative Action is an eternal government policy. People will be what people will be, so your criteria for ending this reverse discrimination program will NEVER be met.

Does it ever occur to you that Affirmative Action itself is invidious prejudice given the force of government coercion? It is exactly the same as Jim Crow but with a different target. Individual discrimination lacks the coercive power of government. Without the ability to be enforced by the guys with guns it is just a personal preference. Cubs vs White Sox. Chocolate vs vanilla. With the coercive power of government it starts down the path to totalitarianism.


"There is no statistical evidence that Affirmative Action imposes any significant reverse discrimination against "whites" in America."

Taxcutter asks:
Then why is Affirmative Action so widely despised? If it had no effect on individuals nobody would care.

 

Affirmative Action was a good idea on paper. There is so much racial discrimination that it would help to have regulations in to stem it. But, in practical use, AA simply allows does not work. All it does is give non-whites extra points because they are not white. The college I went to has a entrance exam. You must pass this exam to get in. Because of AA a number of black students were let in who got almost 15% UNDER the passing grade. This is not fair. They should not have been let in because they did not EARN it like everyone else.

AA needs to be replaced by a system that simply punishes companies and schools that have policies designed to discriminate, and not simply giving a free ride to under-qualified non-whites.

 

Let's call me a pragmatic optimist. I believe that someday we will overcome ignorant bigoted prejudice but I don't believe it will happen in my lifetime. The belief that "all Men are created equal with certain inalienable Rights" that was expressed as our national ideal over 200 years will someday be realized not today, tomorrow, or even 50 years from now. While I know a lot more about racial prejudice, having spent countless hours reviewing studies and statistics related to it, we know that ignorant bigoted prejudice is often handed down from parents to their children. Rarely does a person stop being a racist but there is some hope for their children if we can educate them young enough and the best thing we can teach them is to understand the ideals upon which America was founded. Only education and knowledge can overcome ignoranct and bigotry and therein lies the hope.

The question of "why is Affirmative Action so widely dispised" is a good question. It certainly isn't because it adversely effects many people but the perception is that it does. Affirmative Action has affected so few people that the opposition if far greater than is logical and I personally believe it is based upon anecdotal cases while completely ignoring actual facts and statistics.

For example the US Supreme Court just heard the case of Fisher v. University of Texas where Abigail Fisher, a white woman, has claimed she was denied admittance because of her race because an African-American with lower scholastic achievement than she had was admitted. From what I've read from the University of Texas' arguments is Abigail Fisher would not have met the entrance requirements anyway and wouldn't have been admitted even if the African-American hadn't been admitted. At least from my perspective, if the University of Texas' statement is correct, then Abigail Fisher was not discriminated against even though a black person with lower qualifications was admitted. An exception was made under Affirmative Action but no exception was made of Abigail Fisher but she has no reason to assume she was entitled to an exception. A black person benefited but no whites were discriminated against in the case from what I can see. All of the white students that met the entrance criteria were admitted.

So I see a problem where those with anti-black racial prejudice will automatically assume that reverse discrimination occurred when, in fact, it appears that it didn't.

When we look at the statistics and the facts Affirmative Action hasn't created reverse discrimination with, perhaps, a few anecdotal cases and those are highly exceptional and that is something that can be addressed to improve Affirmative Action. It can go to far but is really is such a small program that even the exceptions are very rare but they do garner national media exposure. As I've noted historically AA has only helped an average of 125,000 people per year but tens of millions of people think that they're being adversely being affected by Affirmative Action. There just isn't any logical foundation for this belief. In employment only federal contractors and subcontrators are even affected by the Affirmative Action law. That leaves well over 90% of all employers completely unaffected and even with government contractors and subcontractors it doesn't imply that any government coersion is actually taking place. Lockheed, a huge government contractor, for example wouldn't want to discriminate in employment as it is against their corporate best interests to do so. Lockheed isn't forced to hire racial minorities or women or pay and promote them equally by the government but instead does so because it's in the best interests of the corporation to do that. No coercion exists when it's in the corporation's best interests to do something. We find this to be true for most large defense contractors and the law is fundamentally moot related to them.

So why do so many object to Affirmative Action when it really doesn't adversely affect anyone? Why do so many object when its in the best interests of enterprise to eliminate racial prejudice in employment? How many enterprises have hired a lesser qualified "white" person when a more qualified "black" person applied for the job and the black applicant would have benefited the enterprise more? The widespread racial perjudice in hiring practices based upon race have been well documented and its not just person discriminated against that suffers but enterprise suffers and society as a whole suffers as well.

Why are so many "racists" simply unaware of this is the real question that people should be asking. Why do so many seem to want to rationalize their racial prejudice as opposed to overcoming it? Why do they continue to oppose that which is good for society based upon bigoted racial stereotyping when all of the facts are juxtaposed to their beliefs?

In closing I'd point out one simple fact. Affirmative Action is NOT about equality of outcome but instead it's about equality of opportunity. There are certainly "leftists" that advocate "equality of outcome" that many of us oppose but left, right and central should all logically be supporting equality of opportunity. If and when we reach the point where we have equality of opportunity then Affirmative Action will be serving no purpose and will fundamentally become moot even if the law isn't repealed.

We,the Ameircan People, can render Affirmative Action moot by simply ending ignorant bogoted prejudice. That needs to be our goal as Americans. Let us live up to the ideals upon which America was founded were "all Men are created equal and endowed with certain inalienable Rights" because when we do then Affirmative Action will no longer exist.

.


"There is no statistical evidence that Affirmative Action imposes any significant reverse discrimination against "whites" in America."

Taxcutter asks:
Then why is Affirmative Action so widely despised? If it had no effect on individuals nobody would care.[/QUOTE]

 

You post is absolutely spot-on! Bravo!

 

What is being ignored is that those that met the entrance criteria were admitted and no one was discriminated against by the college. Yes, a few black students were admitted that scored below the minimum criteria but statistically the number those benefiting from AA is extremely small on the national scale and women are also included under the AA guidelines. AA is mitigating the effects of ignorant bigoted prejudice but does nothing to end it because the government cannot end individual ignorant bigoted prejudice. It can, to a very small degree, mitigate the effects by that mitigation is highly limited and overwhelmingly doesn't adversely affect anyone.

QUOTE=Daggdag;1062580084]AA needs to be replaced by a system that simply punishes companies and schools that have policies designed to discriminate, and not simply giving a free ride to under-qualified non-whites.[/QUOTE]

We have laws that prohibit discrimination but that doesn't end discrimination and never will. To prosecute a discrimination case there must be compelling evidence but that evidence is non-existant when the discrimination is based solely upon individual ignorant bigoted racial prejudice. How do we document what a person thinks that affects their decisions which result in denial of equality of opportunity?

As I documented a study in 2003 established that a white job applicant was over 2.4 times likely to be hired when compared to a black applicant when all things were equal except the race of the applicant. There wasn't a "smoking gun" that could be used in court to enforce the anti-discrimination laws that are on the books but the racial discrimination was highly evident in practice. We could easily live with a statistic like 0.4 percent employment advantage for a white person over a black person but how can any of us accept the "2.4 times more likely to be hired" for a white person over a black person when all other factors except race are identical? Why aren't we all outraged that a study would reveal this blatant discrimination in employment based solely on race? Andif we're outraged then what are we doing about it? Condemning Affirmative Action that tries to mitigate this blatant discrimination in America does nothing to end the discrimination that is the core problem.

Everyone condemning Affirmative Action is really lining up with the racists that are the problem that Affirmative Action is trying to mitigate in a very small number of cases. They are fundamentally saying that the blatant racial discrimination is acceptable and we should do nothing about it. I don't like Affirmative Action but I understand the reason behind it. We need to end the problem of ignorant bigoted racial prejudice and then the requirement to mitigate its effects becomes moot. There is fundamentally no difference here than there is with government "welfare" programs that mitigate the effects of poverty. If we want to reduce government welfare programs then we need to reduce the poverty that needs to be mitigated. We need to address the problems and that is what many refuse to do.

 

Of course AA should end, it only serves the 'equal end game' of the Commis and only in the areas they see fit. Its as simple as that. Only racists give positions/ favor because of the color of your skin.

 

No. It could be reformed/adjusted in certain ways... but I don't think it should be 'ended'.

 

"Right-wingers" really do need to look up what Marxism, socialism, and communism are because they are the most abused terms in the right-wing lexicon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism

Affirmative Action (and government welfare programs) relates to capitalism and not Marxism, socialism, or communism.

Politcal and economic ignorance seems to be a hallmark of the "right-wingers" in America.

 

Agree, but is is still a failed policy hands down.

 

Marxism/ Cultural Marxism, same thing just a different brush; bring down free markets and the west however you can for your collectivist ideologies. The remarkable thing is the leftists keep telling they are the only experts on Marxism, they understand it the best and they are not it lol. No dude im not white, i just look white.

I dont hear any Commis saying they've polluted the right wing mind. Whats comrade Yuri Bezmenov got to say about yours?

[video=youtube;jMWVUoYNezU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMWVUoYNezU&list=FL-9ZWa3xwj5awjeFzXnJDSQ&index=100[/video]

Doh, it cant be comrade Yuri, we're smarter than RWers. Stop being a RW KGB agent thingy!

 

You haven't and likely cannot prove that. Most reasonable people realize the purpose of AA and understand many reasons why it is a success overall.

 

And one would say the same for the other side of the coin, as I did. When you use the term "Most reasonable people" is when I tune out.

How about we just say "Americans". This crap of government endorsed division has to stop.

 

... because MOST people in the US are on the plus side of AA?

How about we ask the rest of us?..
.

 

We have laws that prohibit discrimination but that doesn't end discrimination and never will. To prosecute a discrimination case there must be compelling evidence but that evidence is non-existant when the discrimination is based solely upon individual ignorant bigoted racial prejudice. How do we document what a person thinks that affects their decisions which result in denial of equality of opportunity?

As I documented a study in 2003 established that a white job applicant was over 2.4 times likely to be hired when compared to a black applicant when all things were equal except the race of the applicant. There wasn't a "smoking gun" that could be used in court to enforce the anti-discrimination laws that are on the books but the racial discrimination was highly evident in practice. We could easily live with a statistic like 0.4 percent employment advantage for a white person over a black person but how can any of us accept the "2.4 times more likely to be hired" for a white person over a black person when all other factors except race are identical? Why aren't we all outraged that a study would reveal this blatant discrimination in employment based solely on race? Andif we're outraged then what are we doing about it? Condemning Affirmative Action that tries to mitigate this blatant discrimination in America does nothing to end the discrimination that is the core problem.

Everyone condemning Affirmative Action is really lining up with the racists that are the problem that Affirmative Action is trying to mitigate in a very small number of cases. They are fundamentally saying that the blatant racial discrimination is acceptable and we should do nothing about it. I don't like Affirmative Action but I understand the reason behind it. We need to end the problem of ignorant bigoted racial prejudice and then the requirement to mitigate its effects becomes moot. There is fundamentally no difference here than there is with government "welfare" programs that mitigate the effects of poverty. If we want to reduce government welfare programs then we need to reduce the poverty that needs to be mitigated. We need to address the problems and that is what many refuse to do.[/QUOTE]



It seems you may be blurring the issue a bit by including/excluding women in your numbers.

Nowhere will we find any numbers that show the effect of AA on the only demographic that actually pays the price: white, male, non-hispanic straight, culturally Christian, unconnected....

These are important numbers, no?

.

 

Because in the South they were denied access to higher education. Much of the educational opportunities in the North were also denied to them, but there were a few available, if they could come up with the cash. In much of the south (and this was true in my own state of DE at the time) Blacks were only allowed to go to school until the 8th grade, if they wanted to go to high school they had to provide their own transportation to the Colored high school (white kids had busses provided) in each county, which for most black kids was not possible since it was usually an hours drive by car each way, and most black families at the time did not have cars.

 

"Affirmative Action is NOT about equality of outcome but instead it's about equality of opportunity."

Taxcutter says:
That's the theory but that is not how AA is enforced. HR people will tell you there are federally set quotas that havwe to be met or the employer has to "show cause" - a difficult legal exercise. The quotas also contribute to business people's decision to offshore an operation. If the offshore vs onshore decision is close or slightly in favor of offshoring, the fact you don't have some bureaucrat in Mexico telling you who you can hire becomes a factor.

Get the quotas and "set-asides" out of AA. Limit it to merely providing equal opportunity and not government enforced "equal" (determined by who?) outcome and the objection to AA will evaporate.

 

You are correct, I knew that. I was being kind of sarcastic with that post....

 

Show me and the rest of Americans realizing/accepting the value of AA... exactly why it is as 'useless' as some wish to assert.

 

Of course. And there were situations similar to those you share above all over this land. Blacks were SCREWED by default. I would not call for 'reparations' today... but the price of oppressing an entire ethnic group as Blacks surely have been... could never have been 'small'.

 

Nonsense. Unlike the the politics of today where lies and revisionist history actually sway MANY (especially on the Right)... Americans could see that something had to be done for those who had been completely disenfranchised or oppressed (for literal centuries).

AA was much needed and actually still is.