Turning Jesus into God

Jesus was God incarnated who died for our sins because the price of sin had to be paid. Jesus being the Son of God is a reference to the virgin birth and to the Sonship of Jesus within the Trinity. https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Son-of-God.html

https://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/son2.htm

 

The "Got Questions" site is generally abject falsehood on steroids - and no the "Son of Man not a reference to a virgin birth - and so this would be no exception. There is no "Virgin Birth" in the original story .. sorry mate.

Regardless - none of the above has anything to do with the OP - the question of which is "Does it matter" to God's word.

 

The important distinction between 'God' and 'Messenger' cannot be overstated. In Judaism, the concept that 'a human being can be God violates' the 1st and 2nd Commandment, as the latter commands that thou shalt not liken God to anything "that is in the earth beneath", adding that followers "shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them." Any image of God in physical form is evidence of idolatry (Praying to False Gods). Idolatry isn't limited to someone that pray to statues, and that's a pretty clear reading of Exodus. Therefore, if a man claims to be God, then the words cannot be from God, because God does not take a physical form that can be rendered into an image. Since Jesus is a person that can and has been captured through illustration and carvings, Jew disqualify his words and claims.

This brings me to 'the words of God', which are quoted in the old testament. The entirety of the bible is not the word of God, and this is made clear by certain sections specifically stating that "God said" something while God is not referenced as the speaker in other sections. The entirety of the old testament is called "the Word of God" because the human translations were scribed closer in time to when God spoke to Moses, with the caveat that the ideas expressed by the lord may not have been accurately understood or written. Thus, the words in the bible are subject to interpretation and debate. Instead of strictly enforcing biblical laws, we can draw lessons and ideas from it.

Why? We are made in God's image. The lord's spirit. Thus, just as God has dominion over us, we have dominion over Earth. Like God, we must decide right and wrong. The story of Noah teaches us that humans are imperfect, even permanently flawed. However, the story also teaches us that we must realize, admit, learn from, and fix our mistakes. The Torah imagines upon reflection, God realizes that destroying the world every time there is corruption and lawlessness would be an endless exercise, and therefore, will no longer punish humanity in the same way. Was God wrong for flooding the world? No. It's not important. Our characters are shaped by how we respond to our failures rather than our failures themselves. We are not inherently evil. Some times we try to do good, but we do bad. This concept exemplifies why the Death Penalty was so rarely used despite the old testament commanding it for adultery. "He who is without sin cast the first stone" is just a rephrasing of Jewish practice during that time. Moreover, the bible provides rules for better treatment of servants (slaves), but 'remember you were once slaves in the land of Egypt and the Lord redeemed you", so the door is left open to improve our practice of God's laws. We are a living and breathing religion. We can expand and improve, because God gave us dominion over the planet. We are responsible for the consequences.

This is the type of thought that seemed to have disappeared when Christianity was formed, and religious power was centralized in Rome.

 

The virgin birth of Christ has nothing to do with pagan mythology. Some of these supposed parallels break down upon close examination. Some of those that are often cited-like Zeus, for example-are anthropomorphic gods who lust after human women, which is decidedly different from Jesus's story. The mythological offspring are half gods and half men and their lives begin at conception, as opposed to Jesus, who is fully God and fully man and who is eternal but came into this world through the incarnation.

 

What on earth are you talking about - I never suggested the virgin birth had to do with pagan mythology ? Never even mentioned it until you came up with the statement that the "Son of Man/God" was some kind of symbol for the virgin birth... which is simply made up nonsense by the jokers over at "got questions".

The Author if Mark does not even mention a virgin birth - never mind use the term Son of Man - to mean or symbolize such a thing.

Never mentioned anything about Zeus ? I was talking about the Bible - not Greek Mythology - and Christian Doctrine such as the Trinity .. asking the question if it matters to God's word whether or not folks believe Jesus is A) Son of God B) God himself. - the Most High - Creator and so on C) Other.

You are way off script in a different chapter.. I made no such comparisons to what you are talking about.

Then you finish with

Jesus is not depicted as "Fully God" and your terminology is unclear - as who are we speaking of when we say Jesus is Fully God .. do you mean God "The Most High" YHWH - EL

Or do you simply mean that Jesus was divine - I assume that you are trying for some basic Trinity description but even that is a fail - and why would you assume the reader has knowledge of the Trinity ...

So - Was Jesus "YHWH" ? or what do you mean "Fully God"

 

Jesus being called the Son of Man supports his divinity. https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/messiah_sonofman.html

 

I have not said that Jesus was not divine - so no idea why you are posting this .. The question to you in the last post was whether or not Jesus was "The Most High"

The quote you give from Daniel contradicts the "Jesus is the Most High" position .. as the Son of Man is not "The Most High" in this passage.

So what do you mean by "Fully God" - Is Jesus "YHWH - "the Most high" --- or not ?

 

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

What on earth are you posting this for ? Was Jesus YHWH .. or not .. The OT is not going to help you much - and where it will help you do not know to find. The verse you posted sheds ZERO light on the matter.

 

The Old Testament writes that Jesus is Yahweh. https://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-Yahweh.html

 

No it doesn't - what a bunch of abject nonsense -- The OT says nothing of a sort . Post from the OT where it says this .. the moronic "Got Questions Site" does not do this - nor even mention anything about the OT - showing you why the folks that run this site are such idiots.

You keep posting stuff that does not relate to the question at hand ... What is the problem here ? .. something not clear ?

The writers of the OT did not even know Jesus existed .. In some places the coming of a Messiah is foretold - NONE of which claim that Jesus is YHWH -- or the Most High.... and it is an absurdity to think they would have written such a thing .. but they didn't so your claim is an abject falsehood.

 

The Old Testament says that the Messiah is God. https://jesusplusnothing.com/series/post/JesusisGod

 

You are reciting made up falsehood ... Who is "El -Gibbor" - what do you know about this name other than this laughable nonsense sites who spin fairy tales.

El - means Lord .. that much I know - do you have any further "etymology " of course you don't as all you have to go on is spoon fed dogma. The idea that that Isaiah thought the "anointed one" was YHWH .. is simple nonsense.

The first thing one would think when the term "Anointed One" is used in Isaiah is Cyrus. As Cyrus was the one referred to as the anointed one of God .. God's chosen servant/messenger ..

A simple wiki search tells us what the Jews say this "Jewish Passage" means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom

As you can see - ZERO reference to Jesus being God ... and the phrase does not mean God - in any way shape or form.

I will give the folks on the site a pass on this one .. as there is a traditional Christian interpretation - "Modern Christian" - as older Bibles say no such thing .. Septuagint being cited in the above passage.

"Messenger of the Great Council" - what do you suppose that means ? Now for this we can find some Biblical support/reference.

What is this "Great Council" that is referred to in the older versions of the Bible ?

 

El Gibbor is a reference to the divinity of the Messiah. http://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2014/01/examining-isaiah-96.html

 

Why do you keep posting nonsense from these nonsense sites .. Some dude pontificating on the meaning of a false interpretation.

what part of "Jesus is not referred to as Mighty God" did you not understand from my previous post ?

"Messenger of the Great Council" is what is stated ... this is not "Mighty God" and you have no clue what it is .. and neither do these morons pontificating on a false interpretation.

We don't even know if this is Jesus that is being referred to but - even if it is - he is not referred to as "Mighty God" .. he is referred to as the Messenger of God .. and that is how Jesus refers to himself.

It amazes me that throughout the NT - Jesus refers to himself as someone other than "The Father" - and you are trying to claim that in the OT he is referred to as "The Father".

This is a preposterous falsehood.

 

Isaiah 9 6 refers to Jesus as Mighty God not Messenger of the Great Council.

 

Yup ... Indeed modern Bibles mistranslate that passage .. What part of "Older Bibles" translate this passage as "Messenger of the Great Council" did you not understand the first 3 times ?

So which is right ? Is the Old Bible Translation wrong ?

How about looking at some actual scholarship rather than a website run by morons ?

https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/03/05/isaiah-96-the-child-is-not-god/

 

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/187840/1085307.aspx

Messenger of the Great Council is a reference to Jesus being the Wonderful Counselor. http://answering-judaism.blogspot.com/2014/01/examining-isaiah-96.html

 

Quit quoting morons .. but kudo's for at least attempting to answer a question on the table - and agreeing that the Modern Translation "Mighty God" is majorly flawed translation.

and no - the "messenger of the Great Council" does not refer to Jesus being a Counselor - and even you should be able to figure that made up nonsense out.

What is being referred to .. is the Council of El or sometimes "Congregation of El" Psalm 82 .. and in numerous other places.

The next question is what did the "Council of El" mean not to you - to me - or those morons you keep quoting from that horrible website - but what it meant to the people living during Isaiah's time .. and the ancient Israelites.

 

Only God is a Savior. Only God fixes things. The Messiah being a messenger who delivers the counsel of God which would, in turn, bring peace, supports the divinity of the Messiah.

Other versions of the Septuagint say Mighty God. https://carm.org/jehovahs-witnesses...e-the-watchtower-interpretation-of-isaiah-96/

 

Give me a break - defaulting to the JW interpretation - as if this is supposed to save you - would you like me to find 20 more sites saying the same thing ? not hard mate

and "What Other versions" are you referring to how many do we have ? dating from when . and so on .. none of which you have likely paid any heed.

Every time you have quoted from the Bible you have been misrepresenting what is said .. If anything - out of this conversation - you should now realize at minimum - that there are many interpretations out there for this passage ... even among "Christian interpretation" .. which counts for very little - very little indeed given the large amount of pious fraud gone into the Bible you currently read . - but even within Christianity this is anything but a settled issue ..

Yet - you came in here all defacto and blah blah blah - like it was - posting opinion - from sites with a massive and well established biased - the entire purpose is to apologize - for all the conflicts with fundamentalist dogma ..

Nothing you have posted from these sites has had merit - most times not even relating to the subject the article is supposed to be talking about... just ridiculous absurd non academic twaddle by Joe Pentecostal .. who gets the word of God directly via the Holy Spirit .. or so they say.

In any case - How about we read the Bible and find out what the Council of El is .. first though .. you do know who El is do you not .. as in "Enlil - El Elyon - El Shaddai - Chief God of the Sumerian Pantheon - Creator - Father - Most High" God of Abraham -and this is no longer debated in serious circles. Can look it up in the Encyclopedia Britannica if you like more info ..

Sometimes El can be used as Lord - some high title with divine attributes - a common thing in the day was the King to have such ... not sure we could find to many kings that didn't

anyway - El - when used as a proper name - as in "The Big Guy" is denoted as such in the Bible. Psalm 82 is one of these examples -
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf

This is a direct translation from the Hebrew "Masoretic Text" compiled roughly 700-900AD .. The version of the OT used by Modern Bibles and interesting the copyists did not delete this one .. slid through somehow.

In the first line we have YHWH standing in the "Congregation of EL - and EL here is used as a proper name. Along with YHWH are other Gods - Sons of El .. called "Sons of the Supreme one" Son's of EL. .. which back then everyone knew all of the names of the 70 son's of EL .. as this was not just Israelite belief . Everyone believed this -- believed in the Council of El.

The story in Psalm 82 has YHWH defeat all the other Gods and become "The Most High" God on earth.. Everyone still believed the El in Heaven was like "The Most High" Creator .. but this was common... El usurped is Father Anu prior.

That is what the Israelites believed .. regardless of what the JW's believe - don't care.. What did these guys believe is what matters ..

 

Christianity is not pagan. It's not a religion, it's a relationship with God. Monotheism was the first belief system. Pagan belief systems don't have the concept of God being holy, just, and loving. Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, came not just to die for our sins, but to remove the barrier of sin from between God and people. Job 9:33

Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

https://www.studylight.org/commentary/job/9-33.html

Monotheism was the first belief system. https://creation.com/origin-of-religion-and-chrisitanity

 

Well Sam - Glad you got that off your chest - but we are not talking about Christianity - and I am well aware it is not "Pagan"

We are talking about what the Ancient Israelites Believed - and in whom Abraham believed was "the most high" and what part of "Not debated in serious circles" went over your head.

but for giggles - what did you think was the name of the God in whom Abraham believed ? if not El ..

 

So over the years he was promoted from a full bird Colonel to a Four Star General. Got it.

 

Yahweh is the self existing eternal Godhead. https://carm.org/islam/why-does-the-quran-ignore-gods-name-yhwh-yahweh/