Universal Salvation, is everybody eventually led back to heaven/paradise/love?

I think there's something to that. I suspect over many lifetimes as we mature spiritually, we finally reach a point that blind faith is no longer sufficient and we begin to seek deeper answers. I think we're seeing more and more of that now.

 

Not really.

The Jewish bibke is followed by the Christian NT, which actually refers to the Jewish ideas when we get to the book of revelation.

There, the same thing about what hitler did is repeated in rather undeniable detail:


Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah, the two witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).

Rev. 11:8 And, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah), their dead bodies shall lie in the street (of Nazi Paganism) of the great city (which is the tenth horn of Western Civilization), which spiritually (in its philosophical outlook) is called Sodom, (i.e.; a place practicing pagan sexual license and libidinal excess) and (that ancient place of Jew trust in the shadow of) Egypt, (the time of their confusion: [Isa. 30:2-3]: Egypt, the land of both their beloved Joseph and also, their slavery), where, (in their blindness of scriptural truth) also our Lord was crucified (among them in 32 AD).

Rev. 11:9 And they of the (the gentile) people and kindreds and tongues (in the lands of the Jewish dispersion, from the time of the beginning of the construction of the abomination of the Dome of the Rock in 688AD until 1948, i.e., 1260 years) among them, (during the Diaspora), and nations (both) shall see their dead bodies (in Concentration Camps) three days (of years, i.e.; 1260) and an half, (1942-1945), and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves (but disposed of in the Crematoriums).


Rev. 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth, (in Nazi Western Europe), shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send (supposed Christian seasonal) gifts one to another; because these two prophets, (the holy people of the book), tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Rev. 11:11 And after (the Holocaust), three and an half days (of years), the Spirit of life from God entered into them, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah), and they stood upon their feet (in the land Promised); and great fear fell upon them (in Islam) which saw them, (the prophecy of the Fig Tree, blooming, Hosea 9:10, was fulfilled: [Matt 24:32].

Rev. 11:12 And (the survivors), they (collectively) heard (the commands of Zionism), a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither (to the prophecy fulfilled, where all Nations can see the Jew returned to the Holy Land once again.).
And they ascended up to heaven (by complying with the voice, gathering themselves together in this Zionism) in a cloud (of peoples from Western Europe and all the world); and their enemies (especially in Palestinia) beheld them.

Rev. 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, (i.e.; Israeli Statehood), and the tenth part of the city, (that first small piece of the Promised Land), fell (to the returning Jews), and in the earthquake (of their in-gathering) were slain of (Muslim) men, seven thousand:
and the remnant (Islamic armies) were affrighted, and (all the Judaeo-Christian world) gave glory to the God of heaven (that prophecy of Daniel, 12:11-12, had been fulfilled as Christ had acknowledged and opposed the Maccabean interpretations).

 

Religion has gotten past the dogma as much as this present older generation can stand for.
We see Christian Counseling now becoming so important and so directly applied to real life problems.

What will come to be the case is the previous references to "spirituality" and the spirits will be seen more clearly for what the ancients meant.
It has only been a century since Freud first informed us that we are are bot alone, mentally.'We all have a personal friend who may well NT be Jesus, but a rather misleading self centered and devious poart of our psyche.

Today we realize the influence of these seven evil spirits, and like Pogo, we see they are us:






1) Id = Lucifer
2) Libido = Satan
3) Ego = Mammon
4) Anima = Devil
5) Self = Beelzebub
6) Superego = False Prophet
7) Harmony = False shepherd
Conscience = Good Shepherd

 

So you take something 2000 years old find a common theme and call it a prediction....Hell Nostradamus came closer to predicting Hitler than the Bible ever could. Bible prophecy is self fulfilling. Its prophecy the authors expected to happen 2000 years ago in their time.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Here he tells the priest they will see his second coming all long dead no second coming.

Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value.

A prophecy Jeremiah never spoke.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

That generation ended 2000 years ago they are long dead no second coming.

Ezekiel 29:10-11 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years.

Show me here where Egypt has never been inhabited for 40 years. There is no 40 year gap in Egypt's history where people have not lived there.

Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Odd, Damascus is still inhabited to this day and signs of a ruinous heap.

 

Something strange is happening over these past five years. I participated in this discussion forum as tate4242 back when it was a part of Ezboard. Back then it was better than just about any other group that I was in....but there is a positiveness in this new group that is amazing to me! The second last version of this forum was good....but this new version is perhaps the most positive group that I have ever been on, with the exception of Spirituality and Consciousness on Linkedin!!!!

The atmosphere here is fantastic!!!!

 

On the other hand one hundred percent of people die sooner or later and former atheist Howard Storm was sure appreciative that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua saved him from a gang of people that would have fitted in extremely well in a Zombie movie!!!


http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm01.html
.....

(Howard Storm)

 

Mythical saviour to support an assumption.....

 

And that happened in 313 AD when Constantine changed the whole world by recognizing the Kingdom had come:

Matt. 24:30 And then, (hearlding the end of pagan myth [Zech 13:2], and astrological worship: [Rev. 6:12-17]), shall appear (in the clouds, [1Thes 4:16], to Constantine and 12,000 soldiers: [As reported to us by the historian Eusibius]), the sign, (The Cross), of the Son of man, [Matt 26:64]), in heaven, (ushering forth the new paradigm of monotheistic Hebrew Christianity):
and then shall all the tribes of the earth (in the Western European Roman Empire) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, (seen by Constantine himself and 12,000 soldiers as reported by Eusibius, the historian), with (socio-political) power ([Rev 4:11] in the establishment of Universal Roman Christianity: [Rev 20:4]), and great glory (in a Pope, identifiable with Appollyon, the destroyer, Abaddon in the Hebrew: [Rev 9:11] during the reign, 467AD, of Hilary I).

Just before a decisive battle, in the year 312, Constantine the Great, the emperor of the Roman empire, which comprised all of the civilized world, and all of his soldiers saw a Cross of light in the sky with the inscription, "By this sign you will conquer."

The following night Christ appeared to him with the Cross in His hand and told him that by this sign he would defeat his enemy, directing that each soldier's shield bear the sign of the Cross.
The emperor fulfilled the command of God and conquered.

Seeing the power of the Cross he abandoned paganism and embraced the Christian Faith, placing his entire empire under the protection of Christ and His Cross. Constantine legalized Christianity and then moved the seat of the empire from Rome to Constantinople to make a new beginning, calling this city the second Rome. Thus arose the Byzantine empire the first Christian society that was governed by Christian principles

 

Remember, Hitler killed himself, so he stood judgement within his own mind and found himself wanting...

 

My assumption is that after I die I am free to spin off in pretty much the same direction, either upward or downward, as I was going in during my lifetime!

If Lucifer/Satan is real, he was free to attempt to kick God off His Throne over the universe!

If Adam and Eve were real they were free to give up their birthright to Lucifer??!!

If I want to be depressed, addicted, suicidal or angry, it seems that I can remain in that state of mind even after I die!!!

Howard Storm reported that in the out of the body state his thoughts were faster, clearer and his sense were far more keen than while in his body!

http://www.near-death.com/ritchie.html
George Ritchie, (written in 1943 long before String Theory is common knowledge):

 

Okay, this is the third or fourth time you have claimed this. It isn't true.

So, what source are you using that tells you that Eusibius reported that the sign of the cross appeared to Constantine's soldiers?

What source says that Eusibius reported 12,000 soldiers?

If you can't source it, you probably shouldn't claim it, because it is untrue.

 

Hitler didnt commit suicide to 'judge' himself, but for several reasons: He was a controller and wanted control of his death; as well as the Russians with their notorious sack of Berlin spread terror among the inhabitants, and Hitler would have gone out as Gaddafi did, being ripped apart by the Russian Army.

 

People possess themselves through their own desires. Man must find a way to master his own desires and Buddha called this enlightenment. Jesus if fully aware of this.

 

There is much discussion concerning a final restoration of fallen Creation by attempting to understand words like 'eternity:'

e·ter·ni·ty
n.
1. Time without beginning or end; infinite time.
2. The state or quality of being eternal.
3.a. The timeless state following death.
b. The afterlife; immortality.
4. A very long or seemingly endless time


Just like 'eon' is an indeterminable period of time, possibly immeasureable.

Eras & Ages are separated segments of time, etc.

And so the wicked will be punished following Judgment, and cast into the Lake of Fire 'for ever and ever.'

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Revelation 20:14-15 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

And is 'for ever and ever' until the end of time, and when does time end? The completed restoration of all?

 

I totally agree with the "divine level that we know not”-bit. However, I’m in slight disagreement in these bits:
I said „ a child of God just like you and me“ and not a “son of God like Jesus” for a reason. None of us is a saint and follows the word of God completely . We are all in need of mercy, but maybe some of us need more mercy than others. With our human understanding we’d probably agree that Hitler for example must be in need of a lot of mercy. And God has a lot of mercy. Psalm 51:1–2
And Luke 7: 40-43 spring to mind.
Also I’m not sure whether the sins we commit are just to be seen as signs of mental disorder. I think most of us are sane enough to be responsible if we make wrong decisions in our life. God wants us to make the right decisions, whatever the right decisions may be. What I don’t think is that we’ll be condemned for our wrong decisions, because God loves us in all our human weakness and will always give us another chance.

 

Well. Nothing against you or Howard Storm (never heard of the guy), but I don’t think his reflections on evil are that deep really. If you’re interested and get around to it you may want to read Moltmann or Sölle on a “Theology after Auschwitz”. They develop the thought of the suffering God a bit further. You won’t find a complete answer to questions of theodicy in those two theologians either, but what I like about them are the practical implications of their work: we are God’s hands and it is it’s up to us to keep trying to make this world a better place.
Some of Moltmann’s thoughts are explained here:

[video=youtube;aIrFCmUkQ4w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIrFCmUkQ4w[/video]

[video=youtube;Y5wYOZSh4GU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5wYOZSh4GU[/video]

 

Yes....we are God's hands and it is up to us to do a significant percentage of ushering in the era of Moshiach!!!!

It is only in the past five years or so that I really began to get my head around the heavy implications of this important truth!


http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research32.html

The NDE and the Future
Kevin Williams' Research Conclusions

 

I was speaking of mental disorders in regard to 'mad men' such as Hitler. Many start out with 'good intentions' but end up in a form of insanity such as Hitler did. He thought a pure race and return to the Germany of old was a noble thing, but when he got into the process became a tyrant w/o emotion, which was power related (absolute power corrupts absolutely) and some say was also a result of the drugs he was taking.

And so there are 'responsible' sins of individual choice, and then there are sins that have come from a depraved mind or are of pure evil. Will let God who sees & knows all determine how to deal with such.

I also am a 'grace' person, but grace is meted out via repentance and with forgiveness. "For w/o repentance there is no remission of sins."

 

I’m not that sure that Hitler was mad. And if he was mad, he wasn’t alone: with very few exceptions a whole people joined in in that madness.
When I grew up in Germany it soon dawned on me that almost everybody in my grandparents generation - most of them perfectly nice, sane and normal people - was guilty in at least some ways of having taken part in the Third-Reich’s crimes, be it with good intentions, only in silent acquiescence or out of understandable cowardess. This let's me think that all of us have the capacity to do unspeakable evil. But even though those who stood up against this evil were a tiny majority, they show that there’s also a human capacity to do good.

I agree, but I believe that all of us will eventually understand and repent, even Hitler.

 

As is said, "the ends justifies the means," and the "road to Hell is paved with good intentions." As well as many Germans said that 'They were just following orders.." Humans have a multitude of reasons to justify their sin!! Often to shed guilt and blame someone else.."the Devil made me do it?" Where they shud have said more rightly, "My flesh made me do it.."

 

That leads us to another ethical problem: Are some moral laws absolute and can not be broken under any circumstances, or are there circumstances in which the ends do in fact justify the means.
Dietrich Bonhoefer had to ask himself that question when he joined the “Abwehr”, a resistance group that intended to kill Hitler. Would the end to stop WWII and the holocaust justify the killing of a dictator?
Here I might answer: probably yes.
Could the end to stop a terrorist attack from happening justify the use of torture? In this case I’m inclined to say no. Partly because I doubt that these means can effectively bring about their end, partly because I’d fear that this might open a Pandora’s box that ought to remain firmly shut if we want to ensure that our society is civilized and respectful of human rights.
There’s never an easy answer. Often we can but pray that our conscience may inform us of the right choices.

 

Most civilized ppl would say that they are against 'torture.'

But then give them the scenario that if a loved one of theirs was kidnapped (the ol buried alive in a coffin with limited air) and you had in your custody a person whom you knew had info to save them, would you 'torture' them to get the info ASAP to save your loved one?

For me, being a husband and a father, I would say 'Yes.' Esp if the torture was not lethal but only severe discomfort....and as for me & God..God knows my heart (my thoughts & intentions)..I'm not going to be a hypocrite, claiming a false nobility, and deny my actual response to such a scenario...

 

So you do think there may be cases in which the ends justify the means.
As for that specific case: I get where you’re coming from and I’d never blame any parent for going mad in such a situation. But I probably would not want to grant a police-man/the state the right to go mad. What – for example – if they tortured the wrong suspect, who doesn’t know anything about the kidnapping. What if you were that innocent suspect? What if the conclusion that such a kidnapping might justify the use of torture slowly paved the way to torture becoming a legitimate means in any criminal investigation? Where do we draw the line?

As I said: ethical questions aren’t always easy.

 

'The ends justifies the means' point of view is usually mis-used, even by many in the church who whip ppl into a frenzy to 'stimulate their faith to receive."

In my previous scenario, the key is that "you know the person has the info' in order to justify extracting it. But blatant hit & miss misuse of a harsh interrogation method is wrong and will eventually be abused in time.

I dont like to think that I am an 'ends justifies the means' type person, as I value integrity of character....but again, if I stumble in the scenario given, again, God knows my heart that it was done for 'non-selfish' reasons. Martyrdom if it were just me is something I could accept---but to watch a loved one go thru it while being able to save them or even not substituting myself in their stead if given the chance, would be something I couldnt live with...again, I trust in a fair & righteous judge to judge my heart.

 

As for Hitler being "good". Romans 3 says there is no one good, so I think the possibility of finding good in Hitler would leave the seeker, wanting. As for people of Germany "just following orders", I believe that just as abortion is so prevalent in America, we are all complicit in the justifying of what society deems necessary. As for the "ends justifying the means" we'll always seek to justify what God has written on our hearts as iniquity.