What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?

Did it ever occur to you that the moral dictums of traditional man-made religions reflect what was good for humans as observed over a long period of time? The nuclear family has been the basic social unit throughout human history. Why? Because it worked. Back when survival was uncertain people didn't have a lot of time to worry about political correctness.

 

Curiously, from reading the Bible I have deduced that God's moral's are identical to the morals of a Bronze age society.

 

The "progressing" of Christianity - is that based on God changing to conform to modern society? Has God progressed?

 

Human morality, from what I can tell, has never changed. It is DNA and survival/selfish gene driven.

You seem to think it was ok for Christianity to accentuate the inferiority of women and gays as compared to the Jewish religion, that honored women as well as all gays in a more equal way, in the past.

Is there room for that backwards thinking today, or should Christians change their vile ways?

Regards
DL

 

But that's pretty good!

Like I said, no one can correctly describe unless they have experienced it. LOL!!! When you experience unconditional love, you are subject and there is no object.

Like I said.

And from me, who believes you, because I have also experienced "psychic reading" which I believe may be related.

 

I think people should be careful about destroying the nuclear family.

 

I think we can see changes in the religion - in the inerpretation of the Bible.

We have two popes now who at least accept science as being a separate but legitimate '"realm", allowing different views of cosmology. The position of women has advanced - obviously not enogh - the point being limited to the existence of change. The majority of our population (which is dominated by Christianity) accepts same sex marriage and supports some level of abortion. We have states that support physician assisted suicide, where suicide is considered a mortal sin.

Slow? Absolutely.

Did god change? As an atheist, I'd propose it's more that man's understandig gradually improves as these issues are less and less seen as absolute demands of god.

 

Not sure what you're asking for here, but you didn't answer the questions that both of us have posed. An answer would be the least you could do to repay my compliment.

Perhaps I was unclear, but I was talking to you - what other people think, believe and say is irrelevant. Of course, you're under no obligation to have this discussion/debate, but I think it's fair to establish that and one other ground rule - there's no need to climb down into the sandbox.

Do you?

You've singled out Christians, so that remains an open question as does your definition of a 'moral' and 'immoral' religion. Feel free to do a better or more thorough job of defending yourself...

I don't know who and/or what your "genocidal satanic god" is, so I have no position on that matter.

 

I agree.

 

Man's "understanding" has "improved" under a sustained perception management campaign by progressive liberalism. To some extent I will concede that there has been progress. However, it is not progress when society claims that being Male or Female is a result of self identification and not genetics. Another factor is that churches want to "improve" so as to keep the money coming in.

 

Lol - yes, churches do need to attract customers. But, Abrahamic law, early Christian law, etc., are all seriously affected by the society of the time, aren't they?

So, I would still propose that there is an element of continuing reevaluation of what is the society and what is the immutable requirement of an all powerful god. And, I don't see that as an assault on the religion. It made sense to move away from Leviticus. That move didn't damage Christianity - or Judaism or Islam.

Science doesn't agree with you on the gender issue. We get hermaphroditism and all sorts of other cross matched phenomena - not all of which is visible, since our sexual characteristics are certainly not all visible. And, that doesn't hit me as surprising given the diversity of sexual characteristics sprinkled in various locations along with how they are expressed - that is, NOT all directly controled by genes.

 

Your 2nd sentence is 100% correct thereby suggesting that man creates God, rather than God creating man.

As far as I know, Science says one either has XX or XY chromosomes.

 

Your 2nd sentence is 100% correct suggesting that man creates God, rather than God creating man.

Science says one either has XX or XY chromosomes.

 

XYY also happens. There may be others - I don't know.

But, that's not the end of it. Throughout gestation there are mechanisms for expressing genes as actual characteristics. An embryo is a work in progress. This process of expression is not totally deterministic, with it being possible for various combinations of characteristics to arise. So the various glands, etc., do not have to match each other or be fully functional, etc. It's more likely that they follow a pattern, but it's not totally cocrete. The result is not always "if XX then <this whole constellation of features>, if XY then <that other whole constellation of features>"

So, someone may get a pituitary gland that is more like that of a female while getting something else that may be more like that of a male. Since the pituitary gland has significant affect on the brain, ... well, there I go off beyond my pay grade - but you can look it up.

 

IOW, unconditional love is for the self only.

Doubtful because if you are touched by another mind, you cannot help but know it.

My wife called that contact an assault.

Regards
DL

 

Disavowing your gay children is a great way to do that. Right?

Nothing like parents taking responsibility and pride in creating their children.

Regards
DL

 

True, but at the same time, Christians are lining up top take immoral advantage of a suicide victim called Jesus.

That double moral standard is what will kill Christianity, if Bishop Spong is correct.

If measured by moral worth, Christianity is already dead.

Regards
DL

 

This was the initial comment I spoke to.

"If you want to have an honest discussion and debate about Reason, Faith and God I'm game, but if all you're interested in doing is bashing religion and people of faith you're on your own."

I did not ask anything in my reply. I spoke of the dishonesty of theists who hide behind a supernatural B S shield.

As for bashing. Any moral discussion would ne necessity include calling out the immoral religions.

If you cannot call garbage garbage, then you are on your own.

Insert gays and women harmed by homophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what you should be doing with the homophobic and misogynous mainstream religions if you live by the golden rule.

Please get back to me with your conclusion.

Martin Niemöller
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Regards
DL

 

You do not know of any god that can be described as genocidal.

I could send you to do some religious reading, but if you missed or cannot identify that god already, then ------

Is God Actually the Devil? - What Christians Don't Want You to Know - YouTube

Regards
DL

 

I do know that some people have created a god that can be described as genocidal, but it invariably appears that the people who create these gods are the ones who are genocidal.

No need for the reading - I was asking you to identify the "genocidal satanic god" you claimed to be bashing. Judging from the title of your video I presume I have your answer. Any others?

Incidentally, you made a comment to our friend Jet last night that struck me as curious:

What exactly do you mean by "human morality". On one level I agree with what you said but on another I'm wondering if and how that would fit with our current morality towards slavery, to cite one example. Generally speaking, our morality in the West has changed quite a bit over the centuries, especially since Classical Antiquity when people considered slavery perfectly normal and acceptable.

 

I know of no other god that is as vile as the Christian god.

Genocide I could perhaps live with but all those animals. Tsk tsk.

That is really evil. Yes?

To your first.

I do not think we humans are genocidal.

I think in our seeking of the extreme good and evil that a god would have in our dualistic universe, we decided we wanted a god who would stop at nothing to both protect us or kill us if he thought we deserved it. Never mind that a god would have created us to be exactly what we are. Believers are not the brightest bricks around.

To your last. Human morals are identical to natures morals.

We cannot help that given that nature created us and our morals and ethics are identical to what the animal kingdom uses to maintain and grow itself.

As to slavery, our morals are the same for it in the past and now.

The holy men did not condemn slavery as it was the only social safety net.

What else could they offer slaves other than starvation?

If there would have been some other option for slaves, I am sure the holy men would have bad mouthed slavery.

What is sickening is that Christians in later years when others were badmouthing slavery, because the social safety nets had improved, still advocated for slavery just for the profits.

Christians do not know enough to call themselves out for that.

Regards
DL

 

??
What you (or I) think of Christianity is totally irrelevant.

God's sacrifice of his son is certainly never going to be seen as suicide.

And, there is no possibility of disputing that there is moral value in Christianity - as I've cited repeatedly.

One can find that there are other sources of morality, but that's not what you are cliaming.

 

If you think a religion that honors a genocidal prick of a satanic god and their own homophobia and misogyny, as having moral worth, you show your own lack of intelligence and moral thinking.

Only putting tribal affiliations ahead of ones moral sense will have anyone be or stay a Christian or even promote it as a decent religion.

Yahweh lost all credibility and morality the moment Christianity reversed the Jewish morals of the stories and became literalist fools.

I.E. The Jewish Original Virtue in Eden became the Original Sin of Christianity.

Stupid thinking is as stupid thinks.

Regards
DL

 

In the absence of the human, all is subject.

Then you are not approaching it in innocence and purity.

 

A mind reader. How nice to meet you.

Who said that that was how telepathy was activated, and how often has your technique worked?

Regards
DL