What's the best Covid Vaccine?

@pitbull
So, all that verbiage boils down to, for now, there is no booster yet available for your vaccine (which is the same vax that I chose, on purpose, by waiting until I could schedule it at a pharmacy that was only using the J&J vaccine, at the time).

While no one can yet tell you how long your immunity will last, the comforting thing that I would focus on, if I were you, is that you are months behind the 1st who got Jansen (J&J) vaccines. This means, if this vax becomes ineffective at preventing serious cases of Delta, or any other, variant, it will become very evident to all, significantly before your vaccination reaches that point. This time-buffer will allow for medical authorities to issue recommendations, and for you to follow them. (I got mine in mid-May, and was still far from one of the first).

Since Jansen does have a booster in trials, that CenterField says is doing very well, the scenario that I'm sure would be preferable to our medical establishment, would be that, by such time as the need arose, the J&J booster would be available, so it would only be a matter of changing its presumable, initial recommendation, from only for the immuno-compromised, and other vulnerable populations, to include all those who got their first J&J shot, longer than X# of months ago. Even if this booster were not yet available-- and, since the FDA is still moving Covid remediation swiftly through the approval process, I don't think this will likely be the case-- there is the possibility that C.F. cites, of getting a booster of one of the different vaccines. This, however, it is hard to imagine as being an official recommendation, as there would, naturally, be far less research data, supporting that regimen, than there would be, for the actual J&J booster. If, though, you found yourself at the point at which your vaccine's expected effectiveness was coming to an end, and there was not yet a Jansen booster available, you would talk to your physician about it, as I would imagine many doctors would be using these Pfizer & Modern boosters, "off-label," for cases like yours. I reiterate, I think it is rather unlikely that this situation will come to pass.

With the caveat that I am not a physician, and this seems only a reasonable guess, I am expecting my own J&J vaccine to cover me for AT LEAST a good six months, and had thought it very possible that it would provide sufficient protection for a year-- though that had been my thinking before the arrival of the most recent variants, which give one a much less stable basis, on which to build one's guess. Since which variant predominates in your location is intrinsically-tied to the prophylactic effectiveness of your vaccine, and because it is impossible to say, even two months from now, what strain of Covid will predominate in any given place, it is impossible to answer your question, with the certainty that you would, no doubt, like to have. But the same is true, of all future eventualities. So thinking or worrying about it now, when you cannot affect the way that things will play out, is a fruitless-- as well as probably unwarranted-- pursuit.

 

What happened here did not really involve Centerfield, or rather, he was involved unknowingly, by proxy.
1) Adfundum made a comment about a small # of vaccinated people, becoming infected w/ the Delta-variant, or at least that is how it was read by
2) Independent thinker, who commented that it was not a small number of people, but more like half, of people immunized with either Pfizer or Moderna's vaccines, who ended up getting infected, though he included, in his remarks, that these immunized persons do, largely, avoid serious cases.

There'd been nothing in that post, to which CenterField would likely have objected; nor did IndyThink mention CntrFld. Yet, nevertheless,

3) Bower bird called the post "bunkum." No offense B.B., I'm just recounting facts. She went on, at some point, to suggest that IndyThink (henceforth, I.T.) should listen to our illustrious C.F. To which, I.T. responded, not in as de-escalating a way as he might have but, nonetheless understandably, that B.B. was suggesting that he listen to C.F. instead of the kind of scientific researchers whose work is the basis for most of C.F.'s pandemic-related understanding!


I looked over the article, as did you, FiddlerDave and, while there wasn't anything that jumped out as beyond CenterField's understanding (though I wouldn't expect him, obviously, to have all the precise values in his head), nor did I see proof of I.T.'s original statement being any sort of distortion of fact or-- in the words of one of our beloved, albeit sometimes provocative members-- "bunkum."

Here is a <SNIP> that I took:

However, in July, the effectiveness against infection was considerably lower for mRNA-1273 (76%, 95% CI: 58-87%) with an even more pronounced reduction in effectiveness for BNT162b2 (42%, 95% CI: 13-62%).
<End Snip>

mRNA-1273 is the Moderna vaccine, which had fallen from 95% effective in preventing Covid's Alpha-variant, to 76%, against the Delta strain. The reduction from 95% to 42% effectiveness (quoted by I.T.), is for the Pfizer vaccination: a.k.a, BNT162b2.

The article continues<SNIP>

Notably, the Delta variant prevalence in Minnesota increased from 0.7% in May to over 70% in July whereas the Alpha variant prevalence decreased from 85% to 13% over the same time period. Comparing rates of infection between matched individuals fully vaccinated with mRNA-1273 versus BNT162b2 across Mayo Clinic Health System sites in multiple states (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Arizona, Florida, and Iowa), mRNA-1273 conferred a two-fold risk reduction against breakthrough infection compared to BNT162b2 (IRR = 0.50, 95% CI: 0.39-0.64). In Florida, which is currently experiencing its largest COVID-19 surge to date, the risk of infection in July after full vaccination with mRNA-1273 was about 60% lower than after full vaccination with BNT162b2 (IRR: 0.39, 95% CI: 0.24-0.62)

<End Snip>

So, this confirms the mis-termed bunk, that Moderna is faring better than Pfizer, against the Delta-var., which is also what Adfundum had suggested. I.T.'s addition that roughly half of those immunized w/ either of these, is still at risk for catching a milder, if not necessarily pleasant, case of Covid, is roughly accurate, as well.

It is interesting to notice how Center's name worked it's way into the conversation, so that it was taken that I.T. was trying to contradict C.F., which was never the case. The closest he came to that was this:
independentthinker said: ↑
So, you would rather have me ignore the science and listen to Centerfield?
<End Snip>

And that was in answer to B.B.'s implied suggestion that Center's opinion would contradict what I.T. was saying, which was not the case, as neither C.F., nor any of his quotes, had yet come upon the scene.

What all this recalls to my imagination, is grade school agitating; when someone comes up to kid "A" and says, "kid B says you're a snot-nose," so kid A answers back, "Well if kid B had the guts to say that to my face, I'd make him eat my snot," which sends our original "someone," off to kid B to inform him, "That kid A says he's gonna make you eat his buggers, with everyone watching," and so on, drawing the conflict of the two by-standers, ever-closer.

Sorry, I didn't forewarn anyone of the gross turn that awaited them, in my tableau. I hadn't pre-planned it; it sort of just came out that way.

 

Getting the Covid and overcoming it.

For me I'd say half-past never.

 

It's a joke. The line is taken from one of their commercials. I guess it comes down to feeling special, like you're up to any task, after staying the night in a Holiday Inn. Kinda funny; and it agrees with your take on the exchange (i.e., it is treating independentthinker as the villain, here, by mocking him). That is not the way, however, it looked to me, as I thoroughly explained in my post, #28.

 

Hopefully, we J&J folks, won't ever need a booster. But that will depend, of course, on how long the Covid pot simmers, and what new variants come out of it. Since these are unknowables, there's no reason to sweat it, for now. As I said in my much longer post, if our vaccine has a finite, effective life, that will become unmistakably apparent, among its earliest recipients, offering a good number of months for authorities to develop a plan to keep you covered. At this point, remember, the CDC is NOT recommending booster shots of the already approved Pfizer & Moderna boosters, except for a small number of immuno-compromised exceptions. If you should ever need a booster for your J&J vaccine, it is fairly likely that, by then, the J&J booster, currently doing very well in trials, will have been approved.

 

To be clear, I read "Independent thinker" statements that Delta was less than 50% effective, and left the people who were infected by Delta would "very ill."

I believe that is not what is the statements from the authorities, in fact, even if infected with Delta, these cases would NOT be seriously ill, for the most part.

I felt CenterField description have been clear and accurate. The "Independent thinker" rather overstates the issue, and while "If" does say the Delta Vaccine is effective, stating that infection would result in serious illness is extreme.

As always, CenterField information and analysis is outstanding, to me.

If things I say might sound like criticism about CF, to date I have not meant that and my limited verbal limitations from stroke induced asphasia can make my writings difficult for others. I do apologize for any inconvenience!

 

Yes didn’t really expect you to understand the implications of “Muh Freedumbs” and how that is an abrogation of social responsibility

 

Just getting the facts straight

 

Saline solution it's just as effective and a million times safer

 

No inconvenience at all. I guess this is just a case of us reading the same thing, differently. The report cited by Independent T. doesn't say anything, of course, about what it will feel like to have a non-serious case of Covid. My impression had just been of IndyThink saying it would be no walk in the park, that you'll still feel like crap, or what have you, which, who is to say how right or wrong that is? Obviously, it would vary by case. But a lot of people described their 2nd Covid vax shot as a very unpleasant experience, and the medical establishment clearly did not regard it as any cause for concern. I think the same principle is at play, here: the scientists are not endeavoring to qualify or quantify the misery index, for anyone who has a "non-serious," case of Covid. If you don't need to go to the hospital, & have no potentially life threatening effects, then your case is classed non-serious. Does that mean you didn't lay in bed for a couple of days, have persistent nausea, a pounding headache that wouldn't go away, etc.? No. One certainly could experience something like the flu, for instance, that might make the person feel pretty lousy, even though their case was, "non-serious." Then again, some might have very mild symptoms, even none. There is no uniform experience for a Delta infection of an immunized person, as far as how it will make the person feel. That part that I.T. added, at the end, I just took as his representation of one legitimately accurate way one, in those circumstances, might feel. But, once again, I took his main point, to be that a lot more than just a few of those who've been immunized, will likely to get infected by the Delta-variant, even if their immunization does prevent things from progressing to the life-threatening level (below which, there are still many levels of potential unwellness).

I really saw the incendiary comment, that lit the fuse, being Bowerbird's immediately calling it bunkum, without asking about his source or, maybe even without clearly understanding the point that he was trying to make.

To show that I understand that there can be more to a situation than meets the eye, and that I try to take all angles into consideration, it is possible that B.B's deportment, regarding I.T. could be the result of previous encounters. I, myself, know what it's like to have several interactions with someone here who, each time, only strengthens my negative impressions of the member. Perhaps B.B. was influenced in that way, from past experience. For that matter, it is also possible that the way that you read I.T.'s comments, was affected by the your carrying a negative impression, from things of his that you've read, or interactions that you've had.

In any case, I am glad that you didn't take my post as any sort of attack, as I have good feelings about you. It always makes me feel a little bit proud of my post, when I see it has earned one of your "likes." In fact, I had slight misgivings about my initial reply, because the only one of you three that I didn't have good feelings for, was the guy for whom I was sticking up. I honestly can't remember any specific discussions we'd had, only had the vague feeling that, whatever conversation we'd had, wasn't a good one. But I could also be mistaken about that so, when it's not relevant to the current circumstance, I try not to let those types of things sway my reason: in life, that's how one gets locked into a given perspective of a world, and into an existence, of self-fulfilling, negative expectations.

I've got to get going, so be well. I hope we'll get to chat again, soon.

 

Which is what I said all along - it is NOT a small number and many of these breakthrough cases actually get quite sick. The fact is Delta is spreading and it is spreading through both the unvaccinated and the vaccinated. Therefore, people are fools if they think they are protected "like a SWAT team" just because they are vaccinated and are, therefore, spreading misinformation.

However, strong evidence shows that the vaccines do greatly reduce hospitalizations and deaths for those who get sick. But, the left are wrong in thinking that having vaccine passports and places where only the vaccinated are allowed to go somehow miraculously stops the spread of the virus because vaccinated people are spreading this, not only to the unvaccinated and children under 12, but to themselves as well, just as much as the unvaccinated are. This is proven in many studies including in both highly vaccinated countries such as Israel and Iceland where cases are surging despite high vaccination rates. Therefore, there really is no benefit to having vaccine passports or places which prohibit the unvaccinated from going but there are benefits to being vaccinated.

Just like mask mandates which encourage people to go out spreading the virus, vaccine passports and establishments only allowing in the vaccinated also encourage people to got out, thinking they are not spreading the virus when, in fact, they are because they falsely believe they have a SWAT team backing them up.

I am against the spreading of misinformation on BOTH sides. While the right have crazy conspiracy theories the left do a lot of fudging and sweeping all bad stories under the rug to push their agenda of getting people vaccinated. They purposely misinform the public in order to achieve that agenda because they believe that little white lies and purposely hiding bad stories serves the greater good.

 

I took the moderna. The side effects were hard hitting for a day. After that I had lingering side effects that lasted for dang near two weeks. Felt respiratory strain and a cough. Some stomach issues as well. If I could do it over again I’m not sure if I would have picked the same one or not. Made work hell in my opinion

 

They don't know. They don't even really know the efficacy of the vaccine in general.

 

No wuckas!!!
Don’t be such a drondo Sheila

 

Just to offer a second and third account: I got the Moderna shots and only had a sore arm for 36 or so hours after each and some light stomach discomfort those days. My boss got the same shot and said he barely got a sore arm and had no other side effects.

Regarding Pfizer, my wife and older son got it. Both were just super tired for a day after each shot, and I think my son had a headache the first day (which could easily have been from stress because he hates needles).

My other son is 10. The moment a shot is authorized for him, I'll be taking him in to get it.

 

IDK. I've heard that the J&J shot is less effective, especially against Delta, but has some flu prevention aspects to it.

 

J&J fan
Minimal injection site soreness
Among the vaccinated the J&J Club
are more likely to get Covid but,
less likely to require hospitalization
or die from post vaccination infection.

For themselves, MD's choose
J&J. I waited until I could get "one"


Moi

​

Vaccination was the wrong basket for all the eggs.
Corona Viruses have a higher mutation rate then
influenza viruses. Why there is no "common cold" vaccine.
Wish the experts took their medical school
basic virology courses again. SHAME ON THEM.

Much more effort should have been done on
Covid antiviral medicines. Some on the shelf ready to study.
R&D on new ones.

Moi, MD, ret.

 

There is a clear different between what I say and what the user known as "Independent Thinker" says.
One of us knows what he's saying.
You can easily guess which one. Some people manage to be... independent from facts.
Oh, and don't worry, mate. I know perfectly well that you've upheld my contributions, and I thank you for it.
Whatever words Independent Thinker is trying to put in your mouth, I wouldn't worry about it.
Thankfully I don't read Independent Thinker.

 

Reports are that the Moderna shot, which uses a higher dose, is more "reactogenic" than the Pfizer. Still, these effects in the vast, vast, overwhelming majority of times are annoying but not concerning and eventually subside. When someone has a big reaction like the one you had, the consolation is to realize that you have a very strong immune system that reacted very strongly to the antigen fostered by the Moderna shot, which bodes well regarding your protection against the virus.

Also, there is a hint these days, based on some small studies and surveys, that the Moderna shot may be more efficacious and more long-lasting against the Delta than the Pfizer. If you had only one dose of the Moderna and you feel uncertain about getting a second one because of the side effects, I strongly encourage you to get the second dose. Sure, you may feel miserable for a few days, but it beats catching a virus that more and more is proving to carry a significant risk of permanent organ damage in a sizable proportion of people who catch it. Sure, it only kills about 1% (I'm saying only in statistical terms because every avoidable death is one too many) but the death toll is not all that is concerning regarding this virus. It's been demonstrated that good protection is only achieved after the second dose.

If this reaction you had was a reaction to the second shot, then you're fine. Now, if booster third shots get to be offered to your age group/profile, again, I'd take it. Accounts are that the third shot doesn't seem to cause worse side effects than the second shot. They seem to be about the same.

Again, miserable for even two weeks beats the risks brought about by this virus, which can temporarily or permanently affect kidneys, lungs, brains, hearts, pancreas, and the coagulation system even in people who had a mild or asymptomatic case of it.

Think of it: one should prefer to be miserable for two weeks but not damaged with a limited life quality and productivity for the rest of your life, than the other way around.

This said, your "side effects" are a bit peculiar. They usually don't include two weeks of respiratory strain and cough. Are you sure you didn't coincidentally catch a mild case of Covid-19 right around the time you were being vaccinated, before the vaccine was able to protect you?

If you want to sort this out, you should ask your doctor for a serology test of the kind that detects antibodies against the N protein of the virus, to see if you had the disease. Not one that detects antibodies against the S protein, which should have turned positive by the vaccine.

 

Where did you hear that? I find it very unlikely, and I've never heard of this. The influenza virus and the SARS-CoV-2 are very different viruses that shouldn't run into cross-immunity. Maybe what you heard has to do with the common cold. Although I haven't heard it either, at least, it would make more sense, because 20% of common colds are caused by coronaviruses.

 

I meant difference, of course, but mistyped the word.

 

I think it is of dubious efficacy. The delta strain is resistant to the vaccines. The vaccines are already obsolete. They say that a vaccine might mitigate the severity of the infection. If true then that is good. There is no point in my opinion in getting any more shots until we have a vaccine for whichever strain of the virus is currently in play.

 

Are either of your degrees in medicine or virology?

 

When I read that, should I be hearing the theme music from JAWS, or similarly menacing music, in my head?