Why David Hogg’s ‘Five Point Plan’ To End Gun Violence Betrays His Ignorance

They are looking at this all wrong. The dems suffer from perfection disease. When it comes to guns you will always have deaths. It is like that with anything in society. When you have freedoms you will always have abuses. It is the cost of freedom. The problem we are having now is more people going off the deep end. The nuts gets the guns and go on a shooting spree.

The schools need man cages with metal detectors the people go through and armed personnel. But then the killers will just go to a mall.

No simple answer, our society is just breeding lots of nuts. And it will most likely produce even more nuts as people get squeezed more and more. With all these nuts running away we will need even more guns for the non nuts to defend themselves.

 

But that's not how it works in every of the 50 states in practice ...

You have a lot of laws and none works properly.

1 National Firearms Act
2 Gun Control Act
3 "Brady Bill"
4 Second Amendment
5 Miscellaneous Additional state regulations, for example "California Firearms Laws"

For example, private trade between residents of the same state at the federal level is unregulated, because the constitution of the federal government does not give power to restrict the domestic trade of a federal state. However, such state-level trade in 15 states is either limited or prohibited .... only in 15 out of 50!

 

I do agree there are weaknesses but creating new laws limiting law abiding citizens from buying and owning guns is not the answer. I agree we need to refine the mental health issue but we do not need to write new laws to do it, we need to better define the definition of mental illness so that couples getting marriage counseling would not be included in the same category with those who are a danger to themselves or others. Something would also have to be done to prevent people from becoming stigmatized if they seek help for mental health issues.

 

There are issues which need to be addressed but wanting to remove all guns from all law abiding citizens is not the answer. There would have to be a way for people to be able to sell or trade their guns with other people freely. Maybe someone needs to make an app for this purpose?

 

I agree- The key here is identifying and addressing the causes, and that is invariably people.
We don't arrest the car or add regulations to cars when a drunk driver kills someone- we arrest the drunk driver.
When it comes to guns, some people see them like snakes, and perceive they are lurking around waiting to kill them. Common sense and logic are thrown out by people experiencing fear or panic; they loose the ability to control things rationally. That often puts them in danger rather than making them safer.

 

True. Part of the reason that what exists doesn't "work" (meaning give gun control advocates what they want) is that the laws were misdirected in the first place.
If you pass a law that decrees 2+2 shall be 5, the real facts of math does not change. Passing laws based on the idea that guns kill people and if we control guns we control killers is virtually the same kind of logic.

Much of what we have now is misdirected and therefore can't be effective except to harass law abiding people and complicate the real issues. They are not the answer- they are just in the way, an accommodation to the fearful.

 

The anti-gun crowd counts on the fear and panic and uses it in their desire to remove all guns, that is their long con. What these people want to do is be able to better control the people and in order to do that they must first make the people defenseless. They are not yet able to have the government remove all guns so they are trying to make the guns themselves as evil as they can to make people want to get rid of them.

 

Agreed. It is all about control of the people.

 

I have a tunnel look? Very interesting...

Could it be that you have put much unimportant Bla Bla Bla around the simple fact of what a gun was built and constructed for? For what the weapon is used in good or bad is completely irrelevant!

The only thing that matters is what a gun is built and constructed for and that I have neutral way explained!
You say they allowed you freedom in the history ... right, but so what? In other cases, they have helped dictators to power!
It's for self-protection, you say ... so what? In other cases, they serve criminals for her crimes.

You come up with other things that can be used to kill and list them up? Nice ...

Has a car been designed to drive it like a projectile on a target ... or to carry something and someone from A to B?
Funny ... a gun has only one purpose ...
Has a screwdriver been designed to stab one someone or something ... or loosen or tighten a screw?
Funny a gun has only one purpose!

I could go on with millions of things ... and it's always the same result!

But again ... it's NOT about abolish the right to dispose of a weapon or disarm all! It is about a) access to legal weapons for those who do not want them to have the right to prevent b) to dry out illegal weapons market as most as possible!

 

Sure ... it's not a goal to disarm all citizens!

For private sales, there might be a reporting requirement where the seller and the buyer confirm the sale and purchase of the weapons with a clear identity confirmation .... for example, a form or something!

But then there is another problem because I was allowed to learn that there is no such thing as an official ID card in the US. And you only need a passport if you travel abroad.
How does the police control the identity? With the driver's license?

 

Actually what one is hearing when listening to Hogg speak is George Soros' created and funded Moveon.org which was reported a couple of months ago to have taken Hogg under their ideological wing to groom him as a leftist anti-gun ownership standard bearer for the youth of this nation. The fact is that what's coming out of Hogg's mouth is merely the ultimate reflection of how much genuine contempt George Soros has for . . . the . . . Left; since he KNOWS that they will NOT think for themselves. He in fact also knows that the Right will see though his propaganda; but then again the Right is not his real target.

 

Re

Just as different firearms are designed for many different purposes & not

.

Because MSM ignores the innumerable types of competitive shooting sports doesn't mean that millions of Americans are not either participating in them or involved in them(1). Their inanimate targets vary from paper targets to steel silhouette targets and beyond.

Just as a baseball bat is not designed as a weapon, it has been repeatedly been used as one(2). The same is true with firearms. There are many pistols, revolvers & rifles that are designed exclusively for target use but will serve as a weapon if absolutely necessary.
Additionally, there are many firearms that are specifically designed for military use but are also used by competitive shooters in specific classes of competitive shooting like the M1A, AR-15, 1911 pistol etc.

My point is that no one designs or manufactures firearms for criminal use. That they are misused by violent criminals is no more the fault of gun makers than the criminal misuse of knives & baseball bats is the fault of bat & knife makers.



(1) "Top 50 Women in Competitive Shooting"
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/6/19/top-50-women-in-competitive-shooting/

EXCERPT "From action pistol and bullseye champions, smallbore, high power and precision rifle masters, trapshooters and Olympic gold medalists—SSUSA has compiled this list of 50 (52 to be exact) female athletes that are influencing the ever-changing landscape of competitive shooting—for the better.

Note: This isn’t a ranking, though we purposely grouped the first four women at the front in recognition of the attention generated by their respective shooting careers. Otherwise it’s a random selection, with the goal of presenting female shooters from as many disciplines as possible."CONTINUED



(2) "Man Accused Of Killing Family With Baseball Bat: ‘I Freed Them’"
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/09/22/groton-murders-orion-krause-baseball-bat-i-freed-them/

EXCERPT "Authorities say a man accused of killing three family members and a caretaker in Massachusetts told officers he “freed them.” Records released Friday by the police say Orion Krause told officers he killed his mother, grandparents and a caretaker with a baseball bat."CONTINUED

 

Sigh... education is wasted on those who refuse to learn. All that effort to put things in perspective, and you didn't hear a damn word of it. You wish to argue about the fundamental design of guns, not about the people who abuse them and actually commit crimes? I'd be shocked, but you are just one of a crowd that can't see past their fear of guns to realize that damage done with any weapon it is a people problem, not a weapon problem.

Let me give you one little example of controlling a people problem with laws:

DRUGS.

That was has been running since Nixon declared it. Massive efforts, billions of dollars, over crowded prisons and courts, 63,000 overdose deaths a year- and It's worse than ever.
That's what happens when you fail to focus on solutions that work, and demand solutions that serve emotions and fear.
When you have misconceptions and don't understand the problem, you will never come up with an effective answer.
There is an answer that would shut down the illegal drug makers damn near overnight, but nobody is interested- so the war and horrendous losses go on, unabated.
Gun laws are being handled in the same stupid way.

 

The USA needs terminal drug stations. You voluntarily walk in. They give you all the drugs you want, as much as you want. You don't walk out.

 

I posted something on this a few days ago.
Primary point- take the profit out of the illegal drug business, and it collapses overnight.
Provide drugs at cost of production, rehab along with it. Gets rid of contaminated dangerous drugs too.
Gets rid of drug wars, drug related crime, prison overload and much more, fast.
But we can't do that. Not popular, better the war we can't possibly win go on.....

 

Sigh ... your rediculous try to put the attention on the people who use a gun in bad way with the well-known BS argument that not guns kill people, but people who use the trigger was directly seen by me and for such a BS discussion I have no desire, because irrelevant!

The core problem is simply that the US is not willing and able to do anything to improve the state's BS.
Let's take the last school massacre and what was the reaction of the Gun Lobby? The teachers should teach in the classrooms armed. Great idea ... because instead of doing everything so that such people as the assassin does not get access to weapons and the state is able to enforce law and protection sufficiently, such a nonsense comes from proposal .... and not worse, not few also think that's great as a suggestion!

Do you know ... my reaction after the last school massacre was reported in the media was a simple shrug and a "so what?"
No, this has nothing to do with lack of compassion for the victims, but you Americans do not want to have it any other way and that's why more such massacres will happen at you!
Yes, in my country we have such Amok actions at schools too ... since 2000 there were 5 in total. But there are differences to the US, bacause the perpetrators had faked the gun license to purchase them illegal, had stolen the gun form the father who did not store them legal correctly, used very old muzzle loading guns + IED or axe + molotov cocktails. In no case it was a legally correctly bought gun ....

 

It is a goal by many in this country to disarm citizens.

Reporting forms would be another way of tracking who owns what weapons and another way to be able to remove those weapons should our government become tyrannical.

You were "allowed to learn" there is no national ID here, something we have known forever? Many in the US have been trying to get national ID's approved but those who support illegal entry have been fighting against it for years. Right now the driver's license is the closest to it we have.

 

So then by your reasoning when we split the atom to create a bomb we should not use the process to create electricity. We should never use anything for any other purpose other than what it was designed for? Kids should never use chalk on sidewalks or driveways because it was designed for blackboards?

 

Too bad you fail to understand, because you do. The children of gun rights advocates are just as vulnerable as any others, and just as loved. They have every bit as much at stake as the gun control crowd, plus they understand that the 2nd amendment is also the thing that insures our freedom, on a level above most of the rest of the world.

I don't know where you live or what your background is, but I will assume you haven't abandoned the ability to use logic. If that is true, then you must understand that the quantity and nature of crimes in a country is not a function of the number of weapons, but the mindset and character of the people- and this is true no matter where you live. As a long time friend and district court judge told me once, "The best regulator is the self-regulator- and if everybody did that, I'd be out of work. We have to have laws because some people refuse to regulate themselves, and we must control their behavior."

In a free country, the essence of law is to restrict harmful conduct. We don't arrest people who have not committed a crime because someone thinks they might someday. Honest and responsible people owning guns poses no threat to anyone- but the very idea that guns exist scares some people, and their fear is such that it overrides the ability to maintain balanced judgment. That results in the obsession of gun control advocates. Not to stop criminals; it is not directed at criminals or crime- it is directed at honest and responsible people.

Those who protect our second amendment have no problem with directing law at criminals. In fact, we are far more in favor of strict laws for misuse of firearms than the gun control people are. For example, guns are a target of thieves and readily resold in the criminal world at high prices. However, gun theft if treated as a crime on the same level as theft of a TV set, a misdemeanor crime class for low-value theft (under $1000) that gets no direct investigation and if a perpetrator is found and convicted, the penalty is usually a fine or parole. At the same time- criminals who have committed extreme crimes, such as the man who made a 911 call to get police into an ambush and killed two of them- someone who should have been executed or at minimum never be free again- gets paroled.

Gun owners want every gun theft, regardless of value, a felony crime, because of the nature of the stolen goods as a weapon. We would make active investigation mandatory, prison mandatory. We would also make the sale or possession of a stolen weapon a felony with similar penalties. These are things that are directed at the crime, at the criminals- not at the owners who have not violated law. Our gun control lobby makes no comment on things like this, which would have direct impact of gun crime, threat to law enforcement, and murder.
One has to ask why they want to control guns in safe hands, but have little interest in guns in criminal hands. That should tell you that their perspective has more to do with the existence of guns than the existence of the criminal elements using them. Literally, they are obsessed with blocking gun ownership, yet soft on criminals, including those who use guns.

Our system to control the purchase of guns is viable, but the execution and administration of those laws is poorly executed. That is not the fault of gun owners- it is the fault of the legal system failing to use it's own system properly. At the same time, that system does not have the support it should, including keeping the names of mentally disturbed people with violent tendencies on the list. Other laws, specifically medical record privacy prevent that. Often, well intended laws create problems rather than solve them. Then, we have a failure to act responsibly. The shooting at Parkland school involved a young man with a long record of conflicts including 36 call of police to his home over a few years. He had been recommended for involuntary commitment to mental treatment. He posted his intent on social networks of becoming a school shooter. People notified the FBI and local police- and nobody paid any attention to that. Incredible failures, but no isolated ones.

It comes back to the cross-section of the people themselves. Responsible people are not criminals; criminals are not responsible people. Our society currently has made the mistake of being too lenient in raising the last few generations of children- and we have a lot of adult children in our population today, who simply can't cope with life as they should. They blame others for their frustrations and fears, and they are very vocal. Just as children's logic is based on emotion and immediate feelings rather than the bigger picture- these adult children think much the same way. Some of them will become so obsessed with punishing those who haven't made them happy (as they think parents are supposed to) can become very dangerous. Defending yourself from such people is just as important and necessary as controlling them- and that requires the ability to defend.

The objective of controlling guns is just as viable as controlling drugs- it's not going to happen because it's not possible. We COULD control violent people. That is possible, but that won't happen- because our own short-sighted people refuse to recognize that it is the only viable answer.

It's people- nothing but the nature of people; not what they own, that determines the nature of a society.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly but your words are lost on so many because you use too many words and their comprehension is very limited. Their idea is "guns bad take guns good" and the left uses them in their effort to make the populous defenseless so they can more easily control us in the future. Logic has been lost in this politically correct environment and when logic leaves so does critical thinking.

 

It's true- I use long explanations.... hoping to get through that cloud of fog that prevents logical recognitions of obvious facts.
It's also true that it rarely works, and then, only in a token way.
However, short answers don't work either.

I believe that in the larger picture, they also fail to understand how they and their beliefs are being manipulated, and what the consequences of that will be.
No need to explain that to you- but possibly no way to explain that to them.

 

When I read the first, blue-marked part of your post alone, it clearly shows your twisted Geschichtswarnehmung.
The justification for the second amendment alone has historically a completely different background than the situation as it is today.
And then to say that this amendment is the guarantor of American freedom, which is above most of the others on the Wetl ... well ... sorry, but that's ridiculous!

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”

That is the core statement, which is invoked again and again regarding the right to its own weapon, etc., correct?
Even the term militia is in itself a topic, which leads to damned adventurous interpretations. Historically, the US began the War of Independence with a militia, quickly stating that it would not win a war and then set up a standing army - called Continentals - and after the victory over the British actually wanted to abolish, because an army the Underlying the central government is, of course, evil. The fact is that until the Second World War, the United States had a comparatively small armed force, especially in the army, which only grew dramatically larger in the event of a war ... and above all by militia established by the individual states, such as the Civil War 1861 - 1865.

What is the militia today? Actually, only the national guard of the individual states and certainly not any pseudo idiots and fundamentalists from right and left ... in short, the low brainers of the Patriot Movement etc.
The fact is that the militia was an army replacement, especially if law and justice, and especially the protection could not be guaranteed by the federal government. If any natives of the feather headdress became too tight and they fought back violently, then they built on the militia.
Today it is said that because there is not enough police to protect the citizens from the criminals, you need the militia and the right to a gun ... and then the whole thing is a 1-man militia and against more police and control / Surveillance to protect citizens is funnily scolded from right and left.

A short side note: Often here in the forum, many Americans have referred to Switzerland, without knowing that virtually everyone has a gun, because he and often she is a reservist of the Swiss armed forces .... quasi a modern kind of Minuteman! So this argument "but Swotzerland..." is also ridiculous!

As far as your second part of your post is concerned, I must clearly contradict you here.
Of course, the mindset of a criminal is authoritative, but only a partial aspect!
Precisely because it is so easy in the US to legally get a weapon, or illegal it is very easy, has an impact on the mindset of criminals. If any criminal in the US makes a simple break-in to steal things, then the likelihood of him carrying a gun is high! Why?
A) because it's easy to get a gun and B) to have "self-protection" against armed homeowners!

And the madness starts ... called: arms race!

Again ... because I do not want to enter every part of your post specifically:

It's not about portraying the legal gun owners as Bad Guys, nor is it about abolishing the right to a weapon and disarming everyone ... it's nonsense!

It's about the fact that people do not want to have a weapon where they have a weapon ... no matter if legal or illegal.
That's difficult and a lot of effort with many changes, etc. is clear ... but is Kapitualtion before an alternative? Is an arms race "good against evil" an alternative?
The point is, however, that any, but also any attempt to tackle the problem is always blocked by any side, because for one side it represents some encroachment when reasonable weapons licenses and tests are to be introduced or the other side does not get far enjoyable ...
And then there are side-scenes like assault rifles that are perfectly normal weapons for some, but not for others.

You know ... as long as you allow an 18-year-old to legally buy a gun, go to the army, go to war while killing others and run the risk of being killed himself ... but this same this 18-year-old can not go legally to a bar and drink a Whiskey because not age 21, then my understanding of the US in this topic is ... well ... difficult!

 

I will try to be brief.

Take guns away. Hostile people, violent people, are still hostile and violent, and will find weapons- which will be used to attack people who no longer have legal weapons to defend themselves.

Take the hostile, violent people away and the presence of guns harms nobody.

Guns do not kill people. People kill people, and sometimes they use guns to do it. Before guns, they used knives. Before knives, they used rocks. PEOPLE kill people.